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Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
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10-06-2016, 06:24 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 06:20 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 06:00 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Let's put another point out there too. Creationists point to life and say "it's obviously designed" but don't point to a quartz crystal and say the same thing. Why? The Quartz crystal is symmetrical and is comprised of a regular and ordered repetition of SiO2 tetrahedra. Creationists will point to the watch example and say a watch in a field would be evidence of a designer, but this ignores that we observe how watches are made and what their function is for. If no watch had ever been made by man and no process was known by which man could or would make it, there would be no reason to assign its existence to a designer.

What this means is that if one wants to argue that life is designed, you have to demonstrate who or what designed it and for what purpose. You can't use "design" to argue for the existence of a designer without showing that the designer exists.

Trying to argue against evolution and the natural processes by which life can arise (the hypotheses of abiogenesis), is NOT the same as supporting creationism or arguing for a god/designer. This is a shifting of the burden of proof. You invoke design, you have to provide evidence to demonstrate design and designer.

I say living systems, the universe, the earth, the stars, planets, animals, plants, and everything in it were designed by the Creator. Study the fine-tuning of the universe.

You say it, but that doesn't mean your confirmation bias is the same thing as evidence.

All the "fine tuning" argument says is that if any one of the parameters of our universe were different, the universe as we know it and/or life as we know it would not exist. Or to put it another way, if the universe were different, it would be different and life may or may not be able to survive in it. It isn't an argument for a designer or design.

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10-06-2016, 06:24 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 06:20 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 06:00 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Let's put another point out there too. Creationists point to life and say "it's obviously designed" but don't point to a quartz crystal and say the same thing. Why? The Quartz crystal is symmetrical and is comprised of a regular and ordered repetition of SiO2 tetrahedra. Creationists will point to the watch example and say a watch in a field would be evidence of a designer, but this ignores that we observe how watches are made and what their function is for. If no watch had ever been made by man and no process was known by which man could or would make it, there would be no reason to assign its existence to a designer.

What this means is that if one wants to argue that life is designed, you have to demonstrate who or what designed it and for what purpose. You can't use "design" to argue for the existence of a designer without showing that the designer exists.

Trying to argue against evolution and the natural processes by which life can arise (the hypotheses of abiogenesis), is NOT the same as supporting creationism or arguing for a god/designer. This is a shifting of the burden of proof. You invoke design, you have to provide evidence to demonstrate design and designer.

I say living systems, the universe, the earth, the stars, planets, animals, plants, and everything in it were designed by the Creator. Study the fine-tuning of the universe.

There is no fine-tuning; you have the cart before the horse. We are here because we can be; if it were another way we would not be here to contemplate it. The universe isn't made for us.

We have one exemplar of a universe and there is no reason to believe that physics could be anything other than it is.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-06-2016, 06:25 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 06:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 05:26 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  I know that DNA is a protein molecule which houses genetic information.

DNA is not a protein.

Quote:That information provides the programming/instructions to build the amino acid chains which then are instructed to fold into specified shapes
[/

No, proteins fold by their chemical structure - there are no instructions.

Quote:which are then instructed to a specific location of a larger assembly of components which then serve as molecular machines inside the living cell.

No, they are not instructed to a specific location.

Quote:There is also energy harvesting systems, ATP,..., but probably best to focus the discussion on these types of molecular machine systems for now. I understand the A, C, T, and G 4-digit code chemical bases as well. I read over the redox information your provided but I do not see how that explains the complexity of the systems we are discussing.

Natural selection explains them.

Quote:It is great to be discussing this topic with scientists. I am a systems engineer with education and background in mechanical engineering.

Do you understand how crystals form? There are no instructions - it is chemistry. Likewise for organic compounds.

All wrong. The genetic information is housed in a protein molecule was what I said and every other statement you made was inaccurate.
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10-06-2016, 06:25 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 06:23 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 06:04 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Molecular machines also work as a result of chemistry, whether synthetic or biological.

Your finger moves because of chemistry. You think because of chemistry.

You're still applying extra-purpose to processes because of your biases

That is like saying if I take a bunch of metal, put it in a box, shake it really hard for a few years, out will come a fully functional 747 jumbo jet. A 747 jumbo jet is a joke in specificity and complexity compared to living systems.

No, it's not like that at all. Your example is a bullshit non sequitur. Religious nuts and their biases.

Why are you here? What purpose is their for you to peddle your religious nuttery to those of us who were formerly brainwashed by it? Consider

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10-06-2016, 06:27 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 06:24 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 06:20 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  I say living systems, the universe, the earth, the stars, planets, animals, plants, and everything in it were designed by the Creator. Study the fine-tuning of the universe.

You say it, but that doesn't mean your confirmation bias is the same thing as evidence.

All the "fine tuning" argument says is that if any one of the parameters of our universe were different, the universe as we know it and/or life as we know it would not exist. Or to put it another way, if the universe were different, it would be different and life may or may not be able to survive in it. It isn't an argument for a designer or design.

Wrong. There are approximately 20 constants of the universe which are fine-tuned; such that, if these mathematical figures were off by the most smallest fraction of a percent, life as we know it would not exist. The most finely tuned figure is the cosmological constant (energy density of the vacuum of space) which is fine tuned to an order of magnitude of 1:10^120. If that figure was off by that small a value, there would be no life. To give you an idea of the size of that number, there are approximately 10^80 elementary particles in the known universe and there have been 10^16 seconds since the creation of the universe in the Big Bang approximately 13.8 billion years ago. Just amazing!
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10-06-2016, 06:28 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 06:25 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 06:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  DNA is not a protein.


No, proteins fold by their chemical structure - there are no instructions.


No, they are not instructed to a specific location.


Natural selection explains them.


Do you understand how crystals form? There are no instructions - it is chemistry. Likewise for organic compounds.

All wrong. The genetic information is housed in a protein molecule was what I said and every other statement you made was inaccurate.

No, you're simplification of DNA is completely wrong. DNA is made of proteins and, in eukaryotes at least, is stored in the nucleus (except mitochondria have their own DNA. So you have DNA in every cell of your body that isn't "you" because it isn't your DNA. Cell symbiosis theory. Look it up)

For prokaryotes, there is no membrane housing the DNA. So in neither case is DNA housed in a protein.

You need to learn basic biology and basic chemistry. Drinking Beverage

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10-06-2016, 06:29 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 06:25 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 06:23 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  That is like saying if I take a bunch of metal, put it in a box, shake it really hard for a few years, out will come a fully functional 747 jumbo jet. A 747 jumbo jet is a joke in specificity and complexity compared to living systems.

No, it's not like that at all. Your example is a bullshit non sequitur. Religious nuts and their biases.

Why are you here? What purpose is their for you to peddle your religious nuttery to those of us who were formerly brainwashed by it? Consider

I am here to discuss the truth of the matters of science related to genetic information processes, molecular machines, fine-tuning of the universe, theological consequences, and other topics if you like; such as, politics, history,...
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10-06-2016, 06:30 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 06:17 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Yes, the Book was written by 40 authors over a 1500 year period. I have studied and read about many of the writers.

Purported writers. Most are unknown.

Quote:Evil began with Lucifer's prideful heart and his rebellion in Heaven where he brought an army of 1/3 of the angels in Heaven and was then cast out.

You have no evidence of this; it is made up from whole cloth.

Quote:Man was a creation on earth and the devil was allowed to tempt man. The devil, his evil fallen angels, and the wicked people will be destroyed in the second death.

You have no evidence of this; it is made up from whole cloth.

Quote:It was pharaoh who actually hardened his heart against the Lord and the Lord knew that would happen. Read 1 Samuel 6:6.

No, the Bible says that god hardened Pharaoh's heart.

Exodus 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-06-2016, 06:31 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 06:27 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 06:24 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You say it, but that doesn't mean your confirmation bias is the same thing as evidence.

All the "fine tuning" argument says is that if any one of the parameters of our universe were different, the universe as we know it and/or life as we know it would not exist. Or to put it another way, if the universe were different, it would be different and life may or may not be able to survive in it. It isn't an argument for a designer or design.

Wrong. There are approximately 20 constants of the universe which are fine-tuned; such that, if these mathematical figures were off by the most smallest fraction of a percent, life as we know it would not exist. The most finely tuned figure is the cosmological constant (energy density of the vacuum of space) which is fine tuned to an order of magnitude of 1:10^120. If that figure was off by that small a value, there would be no life. To give you an idea of the size of that number, there are approximately 10^80 elementary particles in the known universe and there have been 10^16 seconds since the creation of the universe in the Big Bang approximately 13.8 billion years ago. Just amazing!

Argument from ignorance. Life AS WE KNOW IT would not exist if the universe were different. That does NOT mean life would be unable to exist, just not LIFE AS WE KNOW IT. It does NOT mean that only this universe could have resulted in life. Only that AS WE KNOW IT would not exist.

It's literally saying that if things were different, they'd be different! Fucking profound!

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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10-06-2016, 06:31 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 06:20 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 06:00 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Let's put another point out there too. Creationists point to life and say "it's obviously designed" but don't point to a quartz crystal and say the same thing. Why? The Quartz crystal is symmetrical and is comprised of a regular and ordered repetition of SiO2 tetrahedra. Creationists will point to the watch example and say a watch in a field would be evidence of a designer, but this ignores that we observe how watches are made and what their function is for. If no watch had ever been made by man and no process was known by which man could or would make it, there would be no reason to assign its existence to a designer.

What this means is that if one wants to argue that life is designed, you have to demonstrate who or what designed it and for what purpose. You can't use "design" to argue for the existence of a designer without showing that the designer exists.

Trying to argue against evolution and the natural processes by which life can arise (the hypotheses of abiogenesis), is NOT the same as supporting creationism or arguing for a god/designer. This is a shifting of the burden of proof. You invoke design, you have to provide evidence to demonstrate design and designer.

I say living systems, the universe, the earth, the stars, planets, animals, plants, and everything in it were designed by the Creator. Study the fine-tuning of the universe.

Argument from ignorance.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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