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Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
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10-06-2016, 08:46 PM (This post was last modified: 10-06-2016 08:50 PM by CDF47.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 08:41 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 08:27 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  I've asked a number of posters to explain how the DNA code to molecular machine construction works in a natural sense and no one provided any detail into the process. There is no way this is just some random process.

I am familiar with all those scientists and watched many videos from them and watched their debates and did some reading on them. Even Dawkins, when asked where the information bearing properties of DNA come from, had to concede and say maybe we were seeded here by aliens. This occurs near the end of the video below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5EPymcWp-g

Not a single person told you it was a random process. Step away from the straw men and presuppositionalist bullshit.

You've had your questions answered and your ignorance pointed out. You've got to do the leg-work on the learning side of this. Claiming to want to learn or discuss while preaching religious nonsense and asserting ignorance as knowledge, just makes you dishonest.

Natural/random = Tomato/Tomahto

I was discussing science until I was asked numerous theological questions by others. I absolutely did not initiate the theological discussions. You are making false accusations.
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10-06-2016, 08:49 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 08:46 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 08:21 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Our discussions were based on science. The other poster was asking me theological questions which I chose to respond to.

You started off your posting by claiming a "designer". You brought theology into it from the get-go.


BTW:
There's a forum on that apologetics website:
forums

And the website quotes a misleading Einstein quote on the front page. It does not lend credibility to the site.

I claimed the systems are clearly designed and they are. DNA and the processes to create molecular machines in the cell is proof of the design of living systems and the fine-tuning of the universe is proof the entire universe is designed.
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10-06-2016, 08:50 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 08:45 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  There are many prophecies in the Bible, thousands. They predict the future with astounding precision.

No, they don't.


failed prophecy

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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10-06-2016, 08:51 PM (This post was last modified: 10-06-2016 09:05 PM by Chas.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 08:27 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 07:46 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You should crack open see science books if you actually want to learn about the scientific arguments in detail.

The greatest show on earth by Richard Dawkins is a good intro to evolution.

Krauss, Hawking, and Sagan have written quite a lot on the universe. Try them.

But stop with the bullshit pretending/lying that you're here to discuss when you're here to preach bullshit.

I've asked a number of posters to explain how the DNA code to molecular machine construction works in a natural sense and no one provided any detail into the process. There is no way this is just some random process.

No one has claimed it is a random process - that is your straw man assertion.
Natural selection is not random.

Quote:I am familiar with all those scientists and watched many videos from them and watched their debates and did some reading on them. Even Dawkins, when asked where the information bearing properties of DNA come from, had to concede and say maybe we were seeded here by aliens. This occurs near the end of the video below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5EPymcWp-g

That is not what he is saying. That is, what he is saying is not an answer to the question you are asking.

It is one possible answer to the question of where life began, that is all.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-06-2016, 08:53 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
And they have to approve messages before posting them?


How... restrictive.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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10-06-2016, 09:06 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 08:46 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 08:41 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Not a single person told you it was a random process. Step away from the straw men and presuppositionalist bullshit.

You've had your questions answered and your ignorance pointed out. You've got to do the leg-work on the learning side of this. Claiming to want to learn or discuss while preaching religious nonsense and asserting ignorance as knowledge, just makes you dishonest.

Natural/random = Tomato/Tomahto

I was discussing science until I was asked numerous theological questions by others. I absolutely did not initiate the theological discussions. You are making false accusations.

Natural =/= random

Random = no discernible pattern

Natural processes can be random, non-random, or chaotic

Tired ass religious straw men Drinking Beverage

You seriously need to educate yourself on the basics of science and common words within science (like random and natural)

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10-06-2016, 09:12 PM (This post was last modified: 10-06-2016 09:19 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
It's really very simple, CDF. Chemicals (all of them, including DNA) react based on their shape, their structure. Certain electrons will be attracted to others, and influenced by the sum total "cloud" within their reach. That's why water, for instance, bends at an angle to make the molecule look like Mickey Mouse, when drawn, instead of a straight line. Atomic Theory tells us why atoms react as they do, what shapes they will take, and how those shapes will cause them to interact. (This is a very oversimplified summary, but you get the gist.)

The articles to which I referred you earlier are about researchers who have shown that there are certain structures that result in the precursor molecules that lead to the chemistry of life, that the precursors are found throughout nature (including space!) and that those precursors can be made to interact in predictable ways in conditions that are similar to those found on the rocks near ocean-floor geothermal vents. They have recently (as in the article) shown the mechanisms by which the molecules could link together, based on nothing more than shapes, to form a basis for life as we know it.

When you say "if I shake a jar full of parts", you're showing us that you have no idea how chemistry works. Metal bits don't naturally form together to make larger bits, but individual atoms do exactly that: they make molecules. A better analogy would be to say that if you add a bunch of chemicals into a flask and shake it, you get a product that's different from the chemicals you put in-- which is why I alluded to the manufacture of aspirin. If you put in the right chemicals, at the right temperature, and in the right conditions, you get the same result every time-- that's what chemistry *is*. It's how we make nearly every chemical substance used today, from medicines to plastics to glue, and so on.

The "information-bearing" (which is still misleading) element of the DNA is an acquired trait that emerged after the first self-cleaving molecules emerged. All that it took at first was a molecule that could self-replicate, something akin to "Hammerhead RNA", which you can Google if you like. They actually think it's more likely that the first "DNA-like" molecule was something called TNA, based on a simpler sugar found commonly in comets, which you can also Google if you like. [Edit to Add: My point here is that once a self-replicating molecule emerged via natural chemistry, it would self-replicate into a theoretically infinite number of copies of itself... but because no chemical reaction happens perfectly 100% of the time in nature, due to varying conditions, some of those later copies would be different, mutated. As the mutations continued, you'd begin to see more complex forms, since the less-complex forms wouldn't be able to still reproduce and the original represents the "baseline" level of complexity. The only way is up! It was after the origin of the ability to replicate that we would even begin to expect the molecules to "code" for anything other than their own replication. The stuff you're bringing up, about ribosomes and such, would have come much, much later. That's why they're so reluctant to talk to you about it-- if you can't even understand that part, we've nowhere to go from there, in trying to explain how the world works to you!]

Finally, and unrelatedly, I literally laughed out loud when I saw your citation of the "pagan" religions' silly claims, because you are so blind to the silly elements in your own religion. Your religion believes in man made magically out of clay, talking snakes, trees of knowledge, that there was a time when nothing died, that there was a time when childbirth did not hurt, and that sin has the power to magically corrupt DNA. Frankly, I can't think of anything in pagan mythology that's as silly as what's found in the Bible.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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10-06-2016, 09:19 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 08:49 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 08:46 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  You started off your posting by claiming a "designer". You brought theology into it from the get-go.


BTW:
There's a forum on that apologetics website:
forums

And the website quotes a misleading Einstein quote on the front page. It does not lend credibility to the site.

I claimed the systems are clearly designed and they are. DNA and the processes to create molecular machines in the cell is proof of the design of living systems and the fine-tuning of the universe is proof the entire universe is designed.

Argument from ignorance and personal incredulity. You do not appear to know enough about chemistry to make those claims.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-06-2016, 09:25 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 08:41 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Many of the killings, inquistions,..., are from the Roman Catholic church which combined Christianity and paganism. They attacked true Bible Christians and Jews and I believe they even created Islam to do the same.

The catholic church created islam? To attack other christian sects?


Yeah, I'm done.

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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10-06-2016, 11:24 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(09-06-2016 02:38 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Again, there are only two options, design or random. That's it.

This is incorrect.

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and guess that you're an electrical engineer.
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