Poll: How do we get them to see the truth?
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Peacefull reasoning 69.23% 9 69.23%
Full attack of facts 30.77% 4 30.77%
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Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
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04-06-2016, 12:07 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(03-06-2016 04:19 PM)larrymccall010513 Wrote:  The direct approach is a failure 90% of the time.

That's optimistic by several orders of magnitude. I can't recall a single instance where a direct intellectual assault converted anybody.

For that matter you don't convert people. They convert themselves. Only you can change your mind.

I'd say that the more important and realistic goal would be to work within the framework of their beliefs to help reduce some of the less functional elements. Help people understand that they don't need to follow one damned fool line in Leviticus, build an Ark Park, or send their money to some shrieking televangelist.

By rounding off the worst of the corners and loosening some of the nastier hooks you give them the chance to see their way clear of it. Belief is a situation that you have to understand your way clear of.

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04-06-2016, 02:12 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(04-06-2016 11:58 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 11:29 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  I just don't believe the illusion of happiness holds a candle to reality. I wouldn't go out of my way to convince somebody, regardless of their age. But dying while being devoted to something false is terrible. Similarly, any amount of time with the freedom from religious shackles is worth it.

Viewed from your persepective that would be accurate, but as Aliza said, Know Thine Audience. If the "illusion of happiness" offers them peace while their new "reality" offers them only cognitive dissonance and terror of their own impending death then it's pretty simple to see which is the better situation.

The elderly have more resistance to change and less capacity courtesy of a lifetime of ingrained thinking. That's true regardless of what you believe. Also less time to develop a new world view.

Dying while devoted to something false is unimportant. The falsehood expires with you. Living while devoted to something false is another matter, and one that depends on the nature of the falsehood.
Yeah I get the dying thing. Deathbed deconversion would be the least helpful time to be deconverted (unless they really needed it for their own inner peace). But say they are 70. Is that too old? What if they live until 90? That is 20 years of LIVING..buying into a lie that could be avoided.

It's a touchy topic and subjective at the level of the person who would be deconverted (because who knows what they prefer). (In most cases) I strongly prefer reality/knowledge over illusion/ignorance. Others may value comfort over reality/knowledge though.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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04-06-2016, 04:05 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2016 09:22 PM by DLJ.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(04-06-2016 11:57 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  "We" don't have to do anything. I am not interested in preaching and attacking beliefs; as I'm free to disbelieve so are others free to believe and partake in opium of the masses.

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I'm not attacking a belief if the belief doesn't attack me, or the rest of humanity.

The world has billions all separated by dogmatic belief systems. And all these systems are false reproductions of previous religions.

If an individual ADULT chooses to believe fiction is reality, and base their reality on that fiction , that is their choice as an ADULT to make.

The problem I have is forcing it on others through constantly placing their beliefs into our perceptual field. Along with the indoctrination of young impressionable minds that can't comprehend the fundamentalist, dogmatic garbage being shoveled down their throat.

My point is if they can constantly throw out their lies and religious crap into the public, we should throw out facts, truth and ideas that promote critical thinking and reason into the public. There's nothing wrong with being critical of religious beliefs. There's nothing wrong with being critical, analyzing, and discussing our different views in a rational intelligent manner. I welcome everyone to criticize every idea and every word word I post.

That sharing of knowledge and ideals is how we bring our intelligence to new heights. If I had not had a good friend open my mind, via the works of Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins and many more, I still would be a part of that christian faith. I was a very devout follower for the first 36 years of my life.

The reality of what religion is was heartbreaking and very painful. It took many years to release the seething hate I held toward religion, and bring peace and reason to myself. Yes it is very painful to pull the rug, or comfort blanket of religion away from someone. I feel it is a necessity for the advancement of humanity as a whole.

Carl Sagen said," We individually are no more than a single cell in the body of humanity. If enough cells are toxic the whole body will become toxic and expire."

I believe all religions dogmatic belief systems are toxic and should be cleansed from the minds of humanity. We all share different ideals and beliefs, but the time will come if religions rise of violence escalates much higher, we all will have to choose a side.

I will always stand on the side of reason because I know the alternative is self destruction, via false beliefs feeding a false battle fought in the mind. Fighting against yourself in your mind to the death.

Edited because paragraphs are our salvation.
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04-06-2016, 04:20 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
You can't make people believe or disbelieve what they willfully choose to accept as truth over any reasoned argument. All you can do is offer the crumbs of critical thinking skills to the ones who are still searching for answers. The ones who think they "know" are lost to all reason. Until they have their own doubt, they will not be educated.

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04-06-2016, 07:18 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(04-06-2016 02:12 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 11:58 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Viewed from your persepective that would be accurate, but as Aliza said, Know Thine Audience. If the "illusion of happiness" offers them peace while their new "reality" offers them only cognitive dissonance and terror of their own impending death then it's pretty simple to see which is the better situation.

The elderly have more resistance to change and less capacity courtesy of a lifetime of ingrained thinking. That's true regardless of what you believe. Also less time to develop a new world view.

Dying while devoted to something false is unimportant. The falsehood expires with you. Living while devoted to something false is another matter, and one that depends on the nature of the falsehood.
Yeah I get the dying thing. Deathbed deconversion would be the least helpful time to be deconverted (unless they really needed it for their own inner peace). But say they are 70. Is that too old? What if they live until 90? That is 20 years of LIVING..buying into a lie that could be avoided.

It's a touchy topic and subjective at the level of the person who would be deconverted (because who knows what they prefer). (In most cases) I strongly prefer reality/knowledge over illusion/ignorance. Others may value comfort over reality/knowledge though.

I assume you don't have occasion to share daily life with older people. Their minds do not work the way young ones do. The brain actually changes and there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it.

Take away the beliefs of an old person and you destroy their lives.

Again, why? What is there to gain? Who are you to decide what is better for them? How do you know they can handle losing everything they have spent their entire life building upon? Why should you have the right to push on them what you think you may want for yourself at that age?

Pointless and just as bad as the religious pushing religion on others. Don't be so freaking self righteous, especially when dealing with people you obviously do not understand. Old people have no plans for the future. They have memories. You destroy the memories, you destroy the elderly. Don't be so freaking cruel.

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04-06-2016, 07:27 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2016 07:31 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(04-06-2016 07:18 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 02:12 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Yeah I get the dying thing. Deathbed deconversion would be the least helpful time to be deconverted (unless they really needed it for their own inner peace). But say they are 70. Is that too old? What if they live until 90? That is 20 years of LIVING..buying into a lie that could be avoided.

It's a touchy topic and subjective at the level of the person who would be deconverted (because who knows what they prefer). (In most cases) I strongly prefer reality/knowledge over illusion/ignorance. Others may value comfort over reality/knowledge though.

I assume you don't have occasion to share daily life with older people. Their minds do not work the way young ones do. The brain actually changes and there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it.

Take away the beliefs of an old person and you destroy their lives.

Again, why? What is there to gain? Who are you to decide what is better for them? How do you know they can handle losing everything they have spent their entire life building upon? Why should you have the right to push on them what you think you may want for yourself at that age?

Pointless and just as bad as the religious pushing religion on others. Don't be so freaking self righteous, especially when dealing with people you obviously do not understand. Old people have no plans for the future. They have memories. You destroy the memories, you destroy the elderly. Don't be so freaking cruel.

It is for this reason I have made peace with my family, and do not post (very many) anti-religion memes or make derisive comments about religion around them. I will on occasion try to talk to my dad, a Chemical/Nuclear Engineer, about Atomic Theory and its implications for the age of the earth (he's a YEC)... but my Methodist wife also has a degree in evolutionary biology and chemistry, and since they adore her because she's a Christian, she will on occasion torment my parents with bubbling excitement about the latest evoultion or "age of the earth" discovery. She will even "trap" my dad into talking about it when he doesn't realize that's the direction the conversation will go. I adore her. Heart

I do not think it will harm them to realize their conceptualization of God as a "magic sky man", who needs to meddle magically in the mud to create instead of the Deism-based god who Created all and just let it run as an ongoing Creation. There are many "versions" of the Christian God that are better (by however small a margin) than that mindset encouraged by extreme fundamentalism, and while I wish no anguish on them and would love nothing more than for them to be happy, I feel that I am justified in hoping to improve their lives by helping them see what I see in evolution: the grandeur of the universe unfolding before me. If they want to believe Magic Sky Man unfolds the grandeur according to The Plan™, then I am just glad to share in their appreciation of it. But to let my family members (not only my folks) live forever without the chance to know the universe as I see it is to do them a great disservice, I think.

Edit to Add: Hopefully it will not come up at their deathbed- I would not bring it up but would neither lie about myself just to comfort them, as it would be dishonorable to myself and to my family to mislead them about who their son really is. As a "last moments" situation, I cannot think of anything less appropriate to discuss with them. Let them be comforted. Let's laugh and talk about memories together, friends and family, and keep them knowing how much they were appreciated by those who loved them, including myself. No, I was thinking of lingering deaths, where you might talk for hours to a hospitalized parent before they eventually succumb, and the sort of thing that might come up.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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04-06-2016, 07:32 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(04-06-2016 10:40 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Facts are only facts if all of the parameters are considered, and even if they’re indisputable facts (such as with hard science), then we may still be unimpressed with them because they simply don’t resonate with us in the way that Christian or a Christian-raised Atheists expect.

I’ll give you a fairly weak example, but it’s the only thing that’s coming to my mind right now.

Judaism teaches that G-d offered the Torah to every group of people prior to offering it to the Jews. So if, according to Jewish teaching, all other people were offered the same stories and ideas prior to the writing of the Torah (according to Judaism, some 3,500 years ago), then why should a Jewish audience be surprised when the Epic of Gilgamesh pops up?

Atheists who present this argument to Jewish people seem to expect that we’re going to be stunned into silence and have the fabric of our culture and region somehow cast into doubt because of this. In reality, Jewish people view this information as validation of our religious beliefs.

I strongly support science and actual evidence (archaeological, historical, etc) being introduced to religious people, because at least for Judaism, if something is a fact (as opposed to interpretation), the vast majority of Jewish movements absolutely will reinterpret texts in light of the new information. However, when we're not impressed with “facts,” it may not be because of camaraderie or simple refusal to change our way of thinking. Sometimes the people who present these facts fail to understand what we think in the first place.

So I agree, you have to attack at angles that open the minds of religious people if your goal is to promote meaningful change. But to do that, you must first understand what religious people actually think, and not just what you think they think.

I see presupposition is alive and thriving in you. Drinking Beverage

Also making shit up. Where in the Torah does it say any of that? Nowhere.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-06-2016, 09:25 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(04-06-2016 07:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 10:40 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Facts are only facts if all of the parameters are considered, and even if they’re indisputable facts (such as with hard science), then we may still be unimpressed with them because they simply don’t resonate with us in the way that Christian or a Christian-raised Atheists expect.

I’ll give you a fairly weak example, but it’s the only thing that’s coming to my mind right now.

Judaism teaches that G-d offered the Torah to every group of people prior to offering it to the Jews. So if, according to Jewish teaching, all other people were offered the same stories and ideas prior to the writing of the Torah (according to Judaism, some 3,500 years ago), then why should a Jewish audience be surprised when the Epic of Gilgamesh pops up?

Atheists who present this argument to Jewish people seem to expect that we’re going to be stunned into silence and have the fabric of our culture and region somehow cast into doubt because of this. In reality, Jewish people view this information as validation of our religious beliefs.

I strongly support science and actual evidence (archaeological, historical, etc) being introduced to religious people, because at least for Judaism, if something is a fact (as opposed to interpretation), the vast majority of Jewish movements absolutely will reinterpret texts in light of the new information. However, when we're not impressed with “facts,” it may not be because of camaraderie or simple refusal to change our way of thinking. Sometimes the people who present these facts fail to understand what we think in the first place.

So I agree, you have to attack at angles that open the minds of religious people if your goal is to promote meaningful change. But to do that, you must first understand what religious people actually think, and not just what you think they think.

I see presupposition is alive and thriving in you. Drinking Beverage

Also making shit up. Where in the Torah does it say any of that? Nowhere.

Where am I making shit up? I'll try to source my shit for you.
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04-06-2016, 10:57 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2016 11:32 PM by Adrianime.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(04-06-2016 07:18 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 02:12 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Yeah I get the dying thing. Deathbed deconversion would be the least helpful time to be deconverted (unless they really needed it for their own inner peace). But say they are 70. Is that too old? What if they live until 90? That is 20 years of LIVING..buying into a lie that could be avoided.

It's a touchy topic and subjective at the level of the person who would be deconverted (because who knows what they prefer). (In most cases) I strongly prefer reality/knowledge over illusion/ignorance. Others may value comfort over reality/knowledge though.

I assume you don't have occasion to share daily life with older people. Their minds do not work the way young ones do. The brain actually changes and there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it.

Take away the beliefs of an old person and you destroy their lives.

Again, why? What is there to gain? Who are you to decide what is better for them? How do you know they can handle losing everything they have spent their entire life building upon? Why should you have the right to push on them what you think you may want for yourself at that age?

Pointless and just as bad as the religious pushing religion on others. Don't be so freaking self righteous, especially when dealing with people you obviously do not understand. Old people have no plans for the future. They have memories. You destroy the memories, you destroy the elderly. Don't be so freaking cruel.
I've said multiple times I'm not interested in changing anybody's beliefs.

edit: To be clear, I disagree that there is no value in an older person coming out of religion. Not all old people are living to die. Not all old people value repetition and comfort over truth and change. In your "tone", don't assume you speak for all elderly.

I can repeat every question you asked me back at you in the negative form. Either way, nobody can say what an individual would prefer except for that individual.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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05-06-2016, 03:25 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(04-06-2016 04:05 PM)larrymccall010513 Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 11:57 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  "We" don't have to do anything. I am not interested in preaching and attacking beliefs; as I'm free to disbelieve so are others free to believe and partake in opium of the masses.

Wysłane z mojego 6045K przy użyciu Tapatalka
I'm not attacking a belief if the belief doesn't attack me, or the rest of humanity.

The world has billions all separated by dogmatic belief systems. And all these systems are false reproductions of previous religions.

If an individual ADULT chooses to believe fiction is reality, and base their reality on that fiction , that is their choice as an ADULT to make.

The problem I have is forcing it on others through constantly placing their beliefs into our perceptual field. Along with the indoctrination of young impressionable minds that can't comprehend the fundamentalist, dogmatic garbage being shoveled down their throat.

My point is if they can constantly throw out their lies and religious crap into the public, we should throw out facts, truth and ideas that promote critical thinking and reason into the public. There's nothing wrong with being critical of religious beliefs. There's nothing wrong with being critical, analyzing, and discussing our different views in a rational intelligent manner. I welcome everyone to criticize every idea and every word word I post.

That sharing of knowledge and ideals is how we bring our intelligence to new heights. If I had not had a good friend open my mind, via the works of Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins and many more, I still would be a part of that christian faith. I was a very devout follower for the first 36 years of my life.

The reality of what religion is was heartbreaking and very painful. It took many years to release the seething hate I held toward religion, and bring peace and reason to myself. Yes it is very painful to pull the rug, or comfort blanket of religion away from someone. I feel it is a necessity for the advancement of humanity as a whole.

Carl Sagen said," We individually are no more than a single cell in the body of humanity. If enough cells are toxic the whole body will become toxic and expire."

I believe all religions dogmatic belief systems are toxic and should be cleansed from the minds of humanity. We all share different ideals and beliefs, but the time will come if religions rise of violence escalates much higher, we all will have to choose a side.

I will always stand on the side of reason because I know the alternative is self destruction, via false beliefs feeding a false battle fought in the mind. Fighting against yourself in your mind to the death.

Edited because paragraphs are our salvation.
I'm aware that thanks to childhood indoctrination religion isn't a choice but I'm still not interested in "showing the light" to flock. Information is freely available if one only want to look. I don't believe and I didn't need help. I care not for others faith or lack of it neither I feel that I should share my knowledge with people who aren't interested.


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The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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