Poll: How do we get them to see the truth?
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Peacefull reasoning 69.23% 9 69.23%
Full attack of facts 30.77% 4 30.77%
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Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
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11-06-2016, 06:28 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(10-06-2016 07:48 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  3:1 ratio says that you are wrong.

The Lord allowed pharaoh to harden his heart. 1 Samuel 6:6 provides insight into this. God used many measures to disallow Nebuchadnezzar from hardening his heart, I believe due to the prayers of the very righteous prophet Daniel. God took many extra measures to save Nebuchadnezzar but with pharaoh, who was wicked, the Lord let him go without these extra measures.
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11-06-2016, 06:32 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(11-06-2016 06:10 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(11-06-2016 06:00 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  What I am saying is either the universe and livings systems are designed or all came about by some dumb luck random chance. Those are the only two options.

The universe and living systems are clearly designed. The processes used in the design do include some evolution and mutation; some change over time, and many other processes but ultimately the entire system is designed and not random.

That is my argument and there is no straw man in that. I despise the straw man tactic, as well as all the other manipulative debate tactics.

False dichotomy that you then use as a straw man (the straw man is asserting that if we don't believe your religious explanation, we are saying the universe and life are "random" but you use a definition of "random" that isn't random).

You say life is "clearly designed" but don't clearly demonstrate this. You just assert it because it fits your religious worldview. If one needs to presuppose life is designed to see its design, then it isn't "clearly designed" nor is that belief logical or evidence-based.

If you want to invoke design, you have to first demonstrate the existence of the designer to attribute the design to. Then demonstrate the design and its logical connection to the designer you've proven.

We will wait while a preaching theist on an atheist forum proves God Drinking Beverage

Enough of the false accusations and word games from you.

The extreme specified complexity of living systems clearly proves the design of living systems and the unimaginable extreme fine-tuning of the universe proves the design of the universe. No word games there. That just is how it is.
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11-06-2016, 06:44 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(11-06-2016 06:32 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  The extreme specified complexity of living systems clearly proves the design of living systems and the unimaginable extreme fine-tuning of the universe proves the design of the universe. No word games there. That just is how it is.

Repetition is not evidence. You can keep repeating it, but that does not make it true.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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11-06-2016, 06:46 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(11-06-2016 06:32 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(11-06-2016 06:10 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  False dichotomy that you then use as a straw man (the straw man is asserting that if we don't believe your religious explanation, we are saying the universe and life are "random" but you use a definition of "random" that isn't random).

You say life is "clearly designed" but don't clearly demonstrate this. You just assert it because it fits your religious worldview. If one needs to presuppose life is designed to see its design, then it isn't "clearly designed" nor is that belief logical or evidence-based.

If you want to invoke design, you have to first demonstrate the existence of the designer to attribute the design to. Then demonstrate the design and its logical connection to the designer you've proven.

We will wait while a preaching theist on an atheist forum proves God Drinking Beverage

Enough of the false accusations and word games from you.

The extreme specified complexity of living systems clearly proves the design of living systems and the unimaginable extreme fine-tuning of the universe proves the design of the universe. No word games there. That just is how it is.

It's not "word games" to point out the fallacy in your posts.

Asserting that "that just how it is" because of your religious beliefs, is a religious argument. Preach somewhere else and they might give a shit. Preach here and your stupidity will be mocked endlessly for the ignorance and illogical drudgery it is. That's just how it is Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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11-06-2016, 06:49 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(11-06-2016 06:28 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  The Lord allowed pharaoh to harden his heart.

How many times shall I quote this:

Quote:And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3

And he hardened Pharaoh's heart,
that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12

And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. Exodus 10:1

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 10:20

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart
, and he would not let them go. Exodus 10:27

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel. Exodus 14:8

I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. Exodus 14:18

You are interpreting the bible to say the opposite of what it says.

Can we do that in other parts?

Thou shall lie?
Thou shall steal?

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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11-06-2016, 06:50 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(11-06-2016 06:46 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(11-06-2016 06:32 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  Enough of the false accusations and word games from you.

The extreme specified complexity of living systems clearly proves the design of living systems and the unimaginable extreme fine-tuning of the universe proves the design of the universe. No word games there. That just is how it is.

It's not "word games" to point out the fallacy in your posts.

Asserting that "that just how it is" because of your religious beliefs, is a religious argument. Preach somewhere else and they might give a shit. Preach here and your stupidity will be mocked endlessly for the ignorance and illogical drudgery it is. That's just how it is Drinking Beverage

You mock on here because your arguments are weak. The extreme specified complexity in living systems is undeniably and clearly designed from intelligence so you resort to mocking, scoffing, insulting, falsely accusing, word games, straw man, ad-hominen,... I've seen all this before, numerous times. Same old tricks, different day.
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11-06-2016, 06:52 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(11-06-2016 06:50 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  You mock on here because your arguments are weak. The extreme specified complexity in living systems is undeniably and clearly designed from intelligence so you resort to mocking, scoffing, insulting, falsely accusing, word games, straw man, ad-hominen,... I've seen all this before, numerous times. Same old tricks, different day.

This coming from the person whose argument consists of:

"Wow that's complicated. God did it."

That is not an argument.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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11-06-2016, 06:52 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(11-06-2016 06:49 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(11-06-2016 06:28 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  The Lord allowed pharaoh to harden his heart.

How many times shall I quote this:

Quote:And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3

And he hardened Pharaoh's heart,
that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12

And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. Exodus 10:1

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 10:20

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart
, and he would not let them go. Exodus 10:27

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel. Exodus 14:8

I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. Exodus 14:18

You are interpreting the bible to say the opposite of what it says.

Can we do that in other parts?

Thou shall lie?
Thou shall steal?

1 Samuel 6:6 clarifies this. Hardening of the heart by the wicked is common in the Bible. At times, the Lord takes extra measures to help with this, like with Nebuchadnezzar.
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11-06-2016, 06:53 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(11-06-2016 06:52 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(11-06-2016 06:50 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  You mock on here because your arguments are weak. The extreme specified complexity in living systems is undeniably and clearly designed from intelligence so you resort to mocking, scoffing, insulting, falsely accusing, word games, straw man, ad-hominen,... I've seen all this before, numerous times. Same old tricks, different day.

This coming from the person whose argument consists of:

"Wow that's complicated. God did it."

That is not an argument.

Not complicated, I never said that. I said extreme specificity combined with extreme complexity making the design and construction of a 747 jet look like a joke in comparison.
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11-06-2016, 06:57 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(11-06-2016 06:52 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  1 Samuel 6:6 clarifies this. Hardening of the heart by the wicked is common in the Bible. At times, the Lord takes extra measures to help with this, like with Nebuchadnezzar.

This does not clarify. Clarification would be an explanation, additional texts, discussion, etc. This simply says the opposite. In other words:

It's one of the many, many contradictions in the bible.

Quote:1 Samuel 6:6
Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?

There are 11 places in the text where it specifically says that god hardened pharaoh's heart. There are 4 places where it says the opposite.

You are wrong. There is no clarification. There is only contradiction.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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