Poll: How do we get them to see the truth?
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Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
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13-06-2016, 04:45 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 04:10 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Spin and twist.

Sorry, that's the theistic approach.

Quote: I have watched numerous debates on this topic and the atheist scientist will not touch specified complexity or irreducible complexity arguments regarding the living systems.

"Specified complexity" is a non-starter until there is a definition of what it is. I'm still waiting for anybody to say who specified what. Irreducible complexity has been debunked countless times. Read up on the Dover/Kitzmiller trial and see what a beating Behe took when he tried to claim that.

Quote:The best they will try (when all other manipulative debate tactics are exhausted and they know their credentials as credible scientists are on the line) is panspermia; that we were seeded here by aliens. This then begs the question who designed the aliens since the entire universe is obviously designed as shown by it's extreme fine-tuning and the aliens would exist inside the boundaries of the universe.

Citation required. The only example I know what Dawkins being forced to come up with any explanation at all for life on Earth that was not the result of abiogenesis and evolution.

No reputable scientists thinks that panspermia is a final answer since, as you note, it suffers the same regression problems that "god did it" does.

Quote: One constant of the twenty or more constants of the universe is so fine tuned that if you had a ruler the size of the universe (approx. 90 billion light years across) and you were to shift the constant value one-inch in either direction, life does not exist. That is one of twenty or more fine tuned constants.

Can the constants be different than they are?
Can they be altered independently?
Is the universe we observe unique?
Without being able to answer the questions all we can say is that we appear to have evolved to fit the universe. Claims to the contrary make invalid assumptions.

Quote:Many of the atheist scientist will not even try the multi-verse argument because they secretly know it is nonsense, as Michael Shermer told Dr. Meyer on a train ride after a debate, that multi-verse argument is pretty stupid or something like that.

No, it is not nonsense but it is unsupported by evidence. If anybody is claiming that there actually is a multiverse then they are jumping the gun. At this point it is an interesting conjecture and it will be fascinating to see if science can find evidence to support or discredit the idea. In the meantime, the answer is "we don't know" and not "it is nonsense". The thing is, it answers the questions of fine tuning at least as well as the claim for a god without requiring that a hugely complex intelligence simply exists without cause. If I had to bet on one or the other then Occam's Razor favors a multiverse of some sort.

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13-06-2016, 04:46 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 04:19 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(11-06-2016 07:31 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Don't hold your breath. Drinking Beverage

I won't. Holding the breath is practiced as part of meditation in some eastern religions. I will just continue to pray for you.

I'm guessing that meditation and yoga are 'against your religion'. Consider

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13-06-2016, 04:48 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(11-06-2016 09:55 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(11-06-2016 05:51 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  However, to say that the extreme complexity we see in living systems today, occurring after 4.5 billion years on earth or 13.8 billion years in this universe came to fruition, without any guiding intelligence or design, is completely and totally non-sensible. The degree of specified complexity we are speaking of makes a 747 jumbo jet look like a joke in comparison to the operation of living systems. When I see a 747 flying, I quickly infer design, because I have a general idea of the man-hours it took to design and build such a complex machine and the amount of knowledge throughout the millenium which had to be gained to build that machine. Again, that sophisticated machine, the 747 jumbo jet, is a joke in comparison to the specified complexity of living systems.

This does not address the issue at all, for reasons I already stated and which you ignored. Your 747 analogy simply does not work because a junkyard full of metal parts in a tornado (the original analogy) do not behave in the same way as organic molecules do. When you see a 747 flying, you are right to infer design, because there are no known processes by which metal could organize that way; the same is not true for chemistry. When we perform chemistry, all we are doing is duplicating natural processes under controlled conditions, in order to get the molecules to stick together in the same way they do in nature under the same sort of conditions.

I'm sorry you think it is "non-sensible" that nature works as it does, but it does.

(11-06-2016 05:51 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  The religion I follow says that first man was built from dust; as does science. It is now believed that every element of the body, including the iron in the blood, came from star dust from an explosion of a star in a supernova, eons ago. Inanimate to animate; miraculous!

The Bible says none of that. What the Bible says is that man was hand-formed out of the clay of the earth, which is similar to the origins-myths of many other religions, including the Egyptian and Babylonian (the neighbors of the Hebrews). It also says that woman was hand-made, or cloned if you prefer, out of the rib of man... which I suppose might have made sense to people who didn't know what X and Y chromosomes were.

(11-06-2016 05:51 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  Some of the stories in the Bible are symbolic with hidden meanings; like many of the prophecies. There are keys in the Bible for the symbols which can help in decoding the prophetic meanings. I posted a link to those symbols in one of my posts above. Some stories are parables and are metaphoric and are deliberately that way to teach a lesson, typically. Then the remaining, approximately 90 percent or so, of the Bible is naturalistic.

We understand what metaphors and parables are. What we find hilarious is that you choose to leave in one of the most obviously mythic elements, the tale of creation, and treat it as if it is some sort of dictation taken by God's Secretary, instead of a magical origins myth like every other culture has, written by the primitive society that didn't know how science actually works.

(11-06-2016 05:51 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  There are cases of unnatural phenomenon and miracles in the Bible as you point out. Regarding the talking serpent, the serpent was used as the agent of Satan to speak through. It is apparent in the Bible that Satan and his fallen angels can dwell in and speak through both humans and animals at times.

Yeah, really? It's Satan? Then why does it say that God punishes snakes for what Satan did through them, such as taking away their legs? It's a MYTH, "clearly" (as you put it), and a rather silly one.

(11-06-2016 05:51 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  Also regarding miracles, like the hand of God writing on the wall in ancient Babylon, I believe the Lord designed this universe so he is free to manipulate the laws when he decides. That could explain some of the craziness we see in quantum mechanics as well. Subatomic particles react as if they know when they will be observed by a conscious observer. This is possible, I believe, since the Creator can manipulate the universe explaining the signs, wonders, and miracles. In quantum mechanics, particles can also exist in two places at one time entangled and reactive to each other, regardless of distance apart, instantly. Particles behaving as waves or particles depending on observation is also yet unexplained by science. This is how I believe God builds inside this universe from the ground up, instantaneously upon prayer and thought.

It's funny, then, that I can't even think of a leading-edge quantum physicist who believes that God does any of those things.

(11-06-2016 05:51 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  The creation stories of the pagan religions are clearly myths. For instance, the Asatro (Norse) mythology is a pagan religion for worship of the sun and the moon represented by Sol and Mani. In the Norse religion, the origin of the cosmos is just a fabricated story, like a fairy tale. It goes like this, before there was soil or sky there was a gaping abyss. The chaos of perfect silence and darkness lay between the homeland of elemental fire, Muspelheim, and the homeland of elemental ice. Frost from the ice and flames collided together and the fire melted the ice. The drops from the melted ice then formed into godlike giants. Ymir was the first born giant which was a hermaphrodite which could produce asexually. When he sweated, more giants were born. As the frost continued to melt, a cow emerged from it and nourished Amir with her milk and she was nourished by salt-licks in the ice. Her licks eventually uncovered Buri, the first of the Aesir tribe of gods. Buri had a son named Bor, who married Bestla. Their half-god, half-giant children were Odin (Santa Clause and chief of the Aesir gods) and his two brothers, Vili and Ve. Odin and his brothers killed Ymir and constructed the world from his corpse. His blood became the oceans, the soil was his skin and muscles, vegetation from his hair, clouds from his brains, and sky from his skull. Four dwarves, corresponding to the four cardinal points, held Ymir's skull aloft above the earth. The gods eventually formed the first man and woman from two tree trunks and built a fence around their dwelling place to protect from giants. This is known as the Norse creation myth and is an obvious fairy tale fable. Other pagan religions tell similar fairy tale stories. They are almost straight out of a child's book.

Oh, I totally agree! Obvious myths. And almost as silly as thinking that there was a flood which God needed to use to drown the bad people on earth, rather than just snapping His Almighty Fingers™ and making all the bad people cease to exist. I can go on at great length about the obvious mythology of the Biblical stories, but I think you get the point.

(11-06-2016 05:51 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  Only Christianity and Judaism have a scientifically backed creation story. See the following chart for a breakdown of creation in the Bible compared to science; http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/day-age.html .

These are my theological beliefs which I was asked about or which were commented on. I was earlier falsely accused of starting this argument during a scientific conversation so I just want to be clear that I am only responding to your comments, as I was doing before.

There is absolutely nothing scientific about the Judeo-Christian origins myth. I'm well familiar with the claims made at that website, and it requires such a degree of word-twisting that I can't believe you Biblical apologists would stand for it. It is pretty clear that the Bible's authors believed the sun went around the earth, that the flat earth stood on pillars beneath a dome-like firmament, and that it was possible to see the whole planet if you just stood on a high enough hill. Regardless of whether you stretch the literal six-day creation to include day-ages, it still does not accurately describe what we know about how the universe was made, how the earth formed, and how life developed here. Indeed, if God was really the author of the Bible (instead of men making it up as they go along), we'd be delighted to read that the earth was incredibly ancient and was around for billions of years prior to the development of mankind, or that the sun was "a mass of incandescent gas, a giant nuclear furnace, where hydrogen is burned and helium release at millions of degrees Celsius" (in the words of They Might Be Giants) and the earth rotated around it each year, or that diseases were caused by germs rather than sins, or that blood is just an oxygen-carrier and not a source of atonement for sins. And so on.

The Bible is just as clearly a collection of silly myths from a primitive, Bronze/Iron-Age people. It may not be as silly as some, but is certainly more silly than others, and it is CERTAINLY not a science textbook. We pity those of you who have not grasped this, yet.

I said the 747 jumbo jet is a complete joke to the specified complexity and irreducible complexity of living systems and molecular machines. Do you know how many man-hours it takes to design and build a 747 jumbo-jets and how much intellect is behind that? Do you know how many millenium it took for mankind to gain the knowledge to just be able to conceive the design and build of a 747 jumbo jet?

Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." In other words, the Lord used inanimate dust and created man (an animate being). DNA is now being traced for all humans back to a single man and single women. We are made of dust, even the iron in our blood came from the core of a star which exploded in a supernova eons ago.

The creation story matches with science as indicated in that chart I posted, including the order.

I believe that story is literal.

Some of the greatest achievements in science were made by scientists who did not conform to the consensus scientific opinion at the time (some even at the threat of death). So when you tell me, "It's funny, then, that I can't even think of a leading-edge quantum physicist who believes that God does any of those things" it doesn't really matter since I feel the scientific evidence and proof is so strong for a Designer and Creator, these types of explanations need to be considered.

I believe that God flooded much of the middle-east, but not the entire world, to destroy the wicked people at the time. There were hundreds of years of this wickedness which He chose to end with a flood rather than a snap of the fingers. Never in the Bible does he snap His fingers to end problems here. You can try to question the Designer and His design all you want but the proof is clear, living systems are designed, as is the universe. Theology is the next step from there and the Christian Bible is the truth based on my study and research in science, theology, politics, history, secret societies, warfare/intelligence,...

Provide chapter and verse on those alleged scientific inaccuracies. None of them hold weight. I read them all before and each can be easily refuted. Again, the information in DNA and the construction of the cell is proof of design of living systems and the fine-tuning of the universe is proof of design of the universe, so it may be time to start thinking theologically.
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13-06-2016, 04:57 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(11-06-2016 03:28 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Incidentally, if you read the article to which you cited, it agrees with evolution 100%. It simply refers to Bible verses that it claims allude to the process of evolution. One example:

Science tells us that the entire planet was covered in a global sea soon after its creation (3). In other verses, the Bible says that the earth is controlled by the heavens, refuting geocentrism (4). In Genesis 1:2, God was "hovering or brooding" over the seas of the newly formed earth (4.4-3.8 x 109 years ago, 5). We know from science this is where the first unicellular life forms first appeared (6).

Amusingly, the verse to which they cite to prove that the Bible is "refuting geocentrism" is "Do you know the ordinances of the heavens, or fix their rule over the earth?" (Job 38:33), which of course says nothing about geocentrism, and could just as easily be interpreted as a reference to astrology or simply a reference to the fact that the heavens are (ordered/ruled by God to be) above the earth.

I agree that micro-evolution, some change over time and mutation, are a part of the implementation of the design.

I also agree that there are verses in the Bible that are open for interpretation. We could argue until we are blue in the face on some of these verses which are not totally clear one way or the other. I also do not agree with every interpretation on that website but I find it to be a very good website overall.

Additionally, the Bible is not intended to be a science manual but it is scientifically accurate in it's scientific claims. The Bible is part operations manual for man to live a righteous life, part poetry, part symbolic, part historic, part instruction in laws and governments, part instruction on church operations, worship instructions, teachings of wisdom, part prophecy and foretelling of future events,..., and totally true.

So when the Bible does not describe how a quark works, it is not intended to do so.
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13-06-2016, 04:59 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(11-06-2016 07:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(11-06-2016 05:00 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  Not trying straw man. I despise that tactic. Creation of molecular machines are either happening by design or just dumb luck random chance. Those are the only two options. Call it what you want; random, natural, materialistic means, I don't care, but those are the only two options for this universe and everything in it.

He did not have an answer for where the information bearing properties came from and did not want to look naive so he said maybe we were seeded here by aliens since it is so obvious that this information came from intelligence.

No, those are not the only two options.
The reality is natural selection which is not random. You do not understand what natural selection is or how it works.

Beneficial changes are retained, detrimental changes are eliminated. The positive change is cumulative - that is the antithesis of random.

No, either the universe and living systems are designed or came about by random chance. Those are the ONLY two options.

Design is so evident, it would take willful ignorance to deny it if studied.
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13-06-2016, 05:08 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 04:10 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  I have watched numerous debates on this topic and the atheist scientist will not touch specified complexity or irreducible complexity arguments regarding the living systems.

Wrong Again

Irreducible complexity was defeated in a court of law. The best examples of IC were soundly debunked. IC is no longer a viable argument, unless your name is Michael Behe.



ETA: Chas beat me to it. Thumbsup

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13-06-2016, 05:11 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 04:59 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  No, either the universe and living systems are designed or came about by random chance. Those are the ONLY two options.

Design is so evident, it would take willful ignorance to deny it if studied.

Once again, repetition does not add validity to your claims.

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13-06-2016, 05:13 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 04:57 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Additionally, the Bible is not intended to be a science manual but it is scientifically accurate in it's scientific claims.

Have you read Bart Ehrman?

Do you know what Orthodoxy means and how it was established?

Do you know about the Council of Nicea and the compilation of the bible?

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13-06-2016, 05:17 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 04:59 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(11-06-2016 07:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, those are not the only two options.
The reality is natural selection which is not random. You do not understand what natural selection is or how it works.

Beneficial changes are retained, detrimental changes are eliminated. The positive change is cumulative - that is the antithesis of random.

No, either the universe and living systems are designed or came about by random chance. Those are the ONLY two options.

Constant repetition of your false dichotomy doesn't make it any less false.

Quote:Design is so evident, it would take willful ignorance to deny it if studied.

So, is the ichneumon wasp intelligently designed? It paralyzes a host (such as a caterpillar) and lays an egg on, near, or inside the host's body. Upon hatching, the larval ichneumon feeds either externally or internally, killing the host when it is ready to pupate.
Note that the larva eat the host while it is alive.

Nice design.

If one looks at the actual details of life, it becomes abundantly clear that is is not intelligently designed.

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13-06-2016, 05:18 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 04:31 PM)jennybee Wrote:  In my experience you can only offer people information and facts. Sometimes it's a matter of not wanting to see facts for what they are. Sometimes brainwashing and cult-like behavior are in play (yes, I consider Christianity and various sects of Christianity to be a cult and engage in cult-style behavior including brainwashing of members).

I also think many religions like to get children when they are young, when they don't have the full ability to reason and will often believe what their parents or other authoritative adults tell them is truth.

When someone is brainwashed it is very hard for them to hear facts because they are taught anyone who doubts is "of the devil," is angering God, is going to hell, has no morals, and has not fully welcomed Jesus into their hearts. Fear and ex-communication by family and friends and community are huge roadblocks in people wanting to see facts or reality.

Additionally, some people legitimately want to believe. When you are dealing with someone who wants to believe, facts are not a hindrance to them because they live in the "faith zone."

I think people who want to see the facts for what they are have an internal impetus to do so. They want to do it for themselves. Something has generally happened that is no longer shaping their religious worldview. For me, it was the church's treatment of anyone who was not exactly like them, it's treatment of women, same sex couples, etc. I also never read the Bible (surprisingly) as a Catholic. They only cherry picked the good passages in church.

I switched to Christianity later on and when I did that I actually read the Bible from front to back on my own, I was shocked at what I found. The God of the Bible was not an entity I wanted to worship, for one. And for two, the Bible read like a folktale, a collection of myths and stories made up by man. It's embarrassing to me that one of my degrees is in Sociology and I actually studied various religions in other cultures such as the cargo cults, but all the while believed in Jesus and never reading my own Bible. Facepalm

I think the best antidote for religion is encouraging religious folk to actually read the Bible--most have not read the entire thing and are only going by what the church tells them is true and are sadly taking that at face value.

Truth is truth. Information in living systems and the construction of cells is undeniable, as is the fine-tuning of the universe. From there, time to really turn to theology.

I also studied many religions and was Catholic for most my life. I converted to non-denominational Christian and I also have read the Bible and I study it frequently. The God of the Bible is righteous and sets the standard for moral righteousness for humans. He had to write a moral code, the Ten Commandments, simply to tell us to love Him and each other. His Government is based on this. His Leadership is based on three critical elements; fear, trust, and love. This is true in any leadership scenario. Without one of these key ingredients, leadership with any species is not very effective.

Man fell when Adam and Eve disobeyed God's command. The punishment for sin is death. All men sin.

All other religions say you have to work your way to heaven based on your deeds. Christianity is the only religion which states, that is impossible. All men would fall short if that were the case. Hence, the Son of God (co-equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit) willingly came here, lived the only sin free life, and then allowed himself to be sacrificed for our sins so that we do not have to die eternally. It is a free gift of eternal life and we just need to truly believe in Him and follow Him to accept this free gift. Those that do not accept His free gift, die a second time permanently. I believe the Bible also implies that those who cannot make these decisions; either mentally due to age or disability are also saved and it could be written in the hearts of those that never heard or read the Scriptures.
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