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Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
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13-06-2016, 08:16 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 07:40 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Below is more information:

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorg.html

Yes, that is the site that uses an Einstein quote to prop up it's religious and science connection. To add validity to it's claims.

Unfortunately, Einstein went to great lengths to profess his atheism in regards to Judeo-christian beliefs. The closest he would get is to Spinoza's theism. A far cry from what you are attempting to twist it to.

Where I stand, we call that a lie.

But it's ok if you're lying for jesus?

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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13-06-2016, 08:16 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 06:10 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 05:18 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  The God of the Bible is righteous and sets the standard for moral righteousness for humans. He had to write a moral code, the Ten Commandments, simply to tell us to love Him and each other.

The Ten Commandments (whichever version you pick) is far to simplistic to be of any practical use. It also wastes quite a bit of time dealing with things that have nothing to do with morality.

Quote: His Leadership is based on three critical elements; fear, trust, and love. This is true in any leadership scenario. Without one of these key ingredients, leadership with any species is not very effective.

Any system that requires fear as a component is immoral.

Ten simple rules are the moral code to tell people to both love God and love your neighbor.

There are also governmental rules and laws in the Bible as well; which is where eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth come from by the way. Those were describing capital punishment by a government for specific crimes which is often deliberately misconstrued when people try to claim Jesus was a pacifist. Jesus is Yahweh throughout the Old Testament. He came not to bring peace but the sword when he spoke the truth. There is more disinformation about Christianity than politics, warfare, intelligence, and science combined.

Regarding fear being a part of leadership, it is absolutely one of three key ingredients to have people follow you. If people just trust and love you, they will not necessarily respect you, honor you, or follow you. Look at a pack of wolves. They love, trust, and fear their leaders and they follow them anywhere. Even ancient dogs know this, why some people don't, possibly could be too much intellectual and not enough spiritual and instinctual.
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13-06-2016, 08:23 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 07:40 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Is he the scientist that wrote a book and then when in an actual university as a professor he refuted his own book and spoke of the reliability of the New Testament? I think I heard of him, if that is who you are referring to.

No. He would be one of the most highly regarded biblical scholars in the world. I suggest you put down those science books, which you obviously don't understand, and read some of Erhman's books.

(13-06-2016 07:40 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  I believe there has been much corruption in the church from before the time of the Son of God up until present and according to the Bible, until the end of days.

Orthodoxy was established by sword-point. In other words, those texts you cling to so desperately are "right" and "correct" because the people who disagreed (and thought they were "right" and "correct") got slaughtered.

(13-06-2016 07:40 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  The New Testament documents are 95 percent identical and there were 24,000 copies dating back 2000 years. There are only minor variations and a few discrepancies.

No. You are as wrong here as in your science. The vast majority of the copies are from the middle ages. The ancient copies from 2000 years ago are few and fragmentary.

The bible has been corrupted by accident, translation, deliberate forgery and in any case, has no evidence to back it up.

You would have better luck authenticating and verifying Cthulhu than christ.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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13-06-2016, 08:26 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 08:16 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 07:40 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Below is more information:

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorg.html

Yes, that is the site that uses an Einstein quote to prop up it's religious and science connection. To add validity to it's claims.

Unfortunately, Einstein went to great lengths to profess his atheism in regards to Judeo-christian beliefs. The closest he would get is to Spinoza's theism. A far cry from what you are attempting to twist it to.

Where I stand, we call that a lie.

But it's ok if you're lying for jesus?

You're wrong about Einstein:

Einstein stated in his final letter: 'I am not an atheist.',[19] explaining at one point: "I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal god is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."[1] According to Prince Hubertus, Einstein said, "In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."[20]
Einstein had previously explored the belief that man could not understand the nature of God. In an interview published in 1930 in G. S. Viereck's book Glimpses of the Great, Einstein, in response to a question about whether or not he defined himself as a pantheist, explained:
Your question is the most difficult in the world. It is not a question I can answer simply with yes or no. I am not an Atheist. I do not know if I can define myself as a Pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. May I not reply with a parable? The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's Pantheism. I admire even more his contributions to modern thought. Spinoza is the greatest of modern philosophers, because he is the first philosopher who deals with the soul and the body as one, not as two separate things.

By the way, nowhere in the Bible does it say it is alright to lie. There are a couple examples of extreme cases to save lives where lying was not commended or condemned. Deception and lying is clearly against the teachings of the Bible. In fact, lying is an abomination to the Lord.
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13-06-2016, 08:32 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 08:26 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  You're wrong about Einstein

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.
-- Albert Einstein, following his wife's advice in responding to Rabbi Herbert Goldstein of the International Synagogue in New York, who had sent Einstein a cablegram bluntly demanding "Do you believe in God?" Quoted from and citation notes derived from Victor J Stenger, Has Science Found God? (draft: 2001), chapter 3.

The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
-- Albert Einstein, in a letter responding to philosopher Eric Gutkind, who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt; quoted from James Randerson, "Childish Superstition: Einstein's Letter Makes View of Religion Relatively Clear: Scientist's Reply to Sell for up to £8,000, and Stoke Debate over His Beliefs" The Guardian, (13 May 2008)

For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything "chosen" about them.
-- Albert Einstein, in a letter responding to philosopher Eric Gutkind, who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt; quoted from James Randerson, "Childish Superstition: Einstein's Letter Makes View of Religion Relatively Clear: Scientist's Reply to Sell for up to £8,000, and Stoke Debate over His Beliefs" The Guardian, (13 May 2008)

(13-06-2016 08:26 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  By the way, nowhere in the Bible does it say it is alright to lie. There are a couple examples of extreme cases to save lives where lying was not commended or condemned. Deception and lying is clearly against the teachings of the Bible. In fact, lying is an abomination to the Lord.

Then stop doing it.
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13-06-2016, 08:34 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 08:23 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 07:40 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Is he the scientist that wrote a book and then when in an actual university as a professor he refuted his own book and spoke of the reliability of the New Testament? I think I heard of him, if that is who you are referring to.

No. He would be one of the most highly regarded biblical scholars in the world. I suggest you put down those science books, which you obviously don't understand, and read some of Erhman's books.

(13-06-2016 07:40 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  I believe there has been much corruption in the church from before the time of the Son of God up until present and according to the Bible, until the end of days.

Orthodoxy was established by sword-point. In other words, those texts you cling to so desperately are "right" and "correct" because the people who disagreed (and thought they were "right" and "correct") got slaughtered.

(13-06-2016 07:40 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  The New Testament documents are 95 percent identical and there were 24,000 copies dating back 2000 years. There are only minor variations and a few discrepancies.

No. You are as wrong here as in your science. The vast majority of the copies are from the middle ages. The ancient copies from 2000 years ago are few and fragmentary.

The bible has been corrupted by accident, translation, deliberate forgery and in any case, has no evidence to back it up.

You would have better luck authenticating and verifying Cthulhu than christ.

Oh, I read, studied, and viewed enough arguments from both sides for a life time.

See my posts above regarding the reliability of the New Testament manuscripts. I understand there are stories of corruption and the like in the church but the doctrine is sound. I read the KJV but there is also translation in the KJV from Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek so it would be nice to understand those languages really well to see what the original text said. KJV is a masterpiece though. I will use NIV if I need further translation and I always check multiple commentaries since that is where the deceptions lie. Many of the commentaries are deliberately false you will find. Much of the churches are corrupt. The true remnant church is inside us, as Jesus mysteriously indicated regarding the temple rising in 3 days.
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13-06-2016, 08:35 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 08:32 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 08:26 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  You're wrong about Einstein

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.
-- Albert Einstein, following his wife's advice in responding to Rabbi Herbert Goldstein of the International Synagogue in New York, who had sent Einstein a cablegram bluntly demanding "Do you believe in God?" Quoted from and citation notes derived from Victor J Stenger, Has Science Found God? (draft: 2001), chapter 3.

The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
-- Albert Einstein, in a letter responding to philosopher Eric Gutkind, who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt; quoted from James Randerson, "Childish Superstition: Einstein's Letter Makes View of Religion Relatively Clear: Scientist's Reply to Sell for up to £8,000, and Stoke Debate over His Beliefs" The Guardian, (13 May 2008)

For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything "chosen" about them.
-- Albert Einstein, in a letter responding to philosopher Eric Gutkind, who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt; quoted from James Randerson, "Childish Superstition: Einstein's Letter Makes View of Religion Relatively Clear: Scientist's Reply to Sell for up to £8,000, and Stoke Debate over His Beliefs" The Guardian, (13 May 2008)

(13-06-2016 08:26 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  By the way, nowhere in the Bible does it say it is alright to lie. There are a couple examples of extreme cases to save lives where lying was not commended or condemned. Deception and lying is clearly against the teachings of the Bible. In fact, lying is an abomination to the Lord.

Then stop doing it.

He was not atheist. He believed this universe was created. You incorrectly said he was atheist.
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13-06-2016, 08:39 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 05:22 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 04:35 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Bullshit, saying "I'll pray for you" is just another way of saying "I'm right, you're wrong" and then putting on a psuedo-christian mask over your stubborn refusal to accept evidence.

So since you've deigned to grace us with your presence again, maybe you'll answer questions this time.

Since you think viruses started mutating to get around vaccinations about the time Adam ate that fruit, then did this force of sin cause death, disease and suffering to enter the world?

DNA and fine-tuning of universe clearly show design. Step into theology. Study the different religions. Christianity is truth.

These are my theological beliefs after a life time of study of numerous subjects, including science. I am not trying to sound condescending or act like I am better than you. I mean it when I say that because these are my beliefs.

Sin led to all these things you mentioned.

So sin, death and disease entered the world after Adam ate the fruit?

That's a falsifiable statement.


Do we know anything about the kinds of diseases that affected dinosaurs?


"Infections were quite rare; there are only isolated known examples, which have been observed in Dilophosaurus, Troodon, Camptosaurus, Allosaurus, as well as duckbill and horned dinosaurs. The most famous instance of infection might be the skull of a duckbill dinosaur (a Lambeosaurus) which shows a dental abscess. Given the size of a duckbill dinosaur's tooth row, that must have hurt!

So there you have it, dinosaurs, who lived long before humans, had diseases.

Also, this details an age range spanning multiple species from about 185 mya to 65 mya.

Do you understand what this means?

That means that death, disease and suffering existed long before humans existed. Even before the apple tree existed!

There have been 5 major extinction events in the Earth's past. Death on an unimaginable scale dating back to 450 mya.

This simply doesn't fit your mythological narrative presented in the bible.

This leaves you with a few options:

1. Ignore the evidence
2. Reinterpret the Genesis story to match science
3. Dismiss Genesis as mere metaphor
4. Double down and default to "mystery"
5. Accept the evidence and realize it doesn't match this story

Only one of these is the honest option. Drinking Beverage

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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13-06-2016, 08:42 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 08:32 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 08:26 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  You're wrong about Einstein

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.
-- Albert Einstein, following his wife's advice in responding to Rabbi Herbert Goldstein of the International Synagogue in New York, who had sent Einstein a cablegram bluntly demanding "Do you believe in God?" Quoted from and citation notes derived from Victor J Stenger, Has Science Found God? (draft: 2001), chapter 3.

The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
-- Albert Einstein, in a letter responding to philosopher Eric Gutkind, who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt; quoted from James Randerson, "Childish Superstition: Einstein's Letter Makes View of Religion Relatively Clear: Scientist's Reply to Sell for up to £8,000, and Stoke Debate over His Beliefs" The Guardian, (13 May 2008)

For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything "chosen" about them.
-- Albert Einstein, in a letter responding to philosopher Eric Gutkind, who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt; quoted from James Randerson, "Childish Superstition: Einstein's Letter Makes View of Religion Relatively Clear: Scientist's Reply to Sell for up to £8,000, and Stoke Debate over His Beliefs" The Guardian, (13 May 2008)

(13-06-2016 08:26 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  By the way, nowhere in the Bible does it say it is alright to lie. There are a couple examples of extreme cases to save lives where lying was not commended or condemned. Deception and lying is clearly against the teachings of the Bible. In fact, lying is an abomination to the Lord.

Then stop doing it.

He did not believe in a personal God but he believed the universe was created. There are references of him being agnostic and then also pantheistic. Never atheistic. You claimed he was an atheist and that is not the case which I was refuting and which is true.

According to biographer Walter Isaacson, Einstein was more inclined to denigrate atheists than religious people.[24] Einstein said in correspondence, "[T]he fanatical atheists...are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional 'opium of the people'—cannot hear the music of the spheres."[24][25] Although he did not believe in a personal God, he indicated that he would never seek to combat such belief because "such a belief seems to me preferable to the lack of any transcendental outlook."[26]
Devoutly religious[edit]
Einstein characterized himself as “devoutly religious” in one specific sense as in the following statement:
The most beautiful emotion we can experience is the mystical. It is the power of all true art and science.
He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead.
To know that what is inpenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and
the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms—
this knowledge, this feeling, is at the center of true religiousness.
In this sense, and in this sense only, I belong to the rank of devoutly religious men.[27]

Albert Einstein's religious views have been studied extensively. He said he believed in the "pantheistic" God of Baruch Spinoza, but not in a personal god, a belief he criticized. He also called himself an agnostic, while disassociating himself from the label atheist, preferring, he said, "an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being".[1][2]
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13-06-2016, 08:52 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 08:42 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  He did not believe in a personal God but he believed the universe was created. There are references of him being agnostic and then also pantheistic. Never atheistic. You claimed he was an atheist and that is not the case which I was refuting and which is true.

I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.

- Albert Einstein, letter to Guy H. Raner Jr, July 2, 1945, responding to a rumor that a Jesuit priest had caused Einstein to convert from atheism; quoted by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic, Vol. 5, No. 2

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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