Poll: How do we get them to see the truth?
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Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
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13-06-2016, 09:33 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 09:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 09:16 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  There is no way around the absolute precision, astounding specificity, and astonishing complexity of the living system.

Yes, there is. It's called evolution.

Quote:It is so precise, specific, and complex,

Precise like birth defects? Precise like genetic diseases? Precise like prions?
Precise like what?

Quote:it is beyond comprehension

Beyond yours, apparently, but your incredulity is not an argument.

Quote:and then on top of all that, it is irreducibly complex,

No, it isn't. That has been debunked repeatedly.

Quote:meaning one component fails and the system fails or is degraded.

So? The system you see today did not come about all at once - it evolved from previous functional components that may have been doing other things.

Quote:Then the universe is un-imaginably fine-tuned.

No, it isn't. That has been debunked.

Quote:Next step, theology.

Don't bother - theology is all made up; it is not based on any evidence.

Quote:See my response post to those earlier videos for my take on that.

The Genesis 30 story is a miracle performed. See the interpretation below:
https://www.quora.com/How-do-biblical-li...s-30-37-39

It is all unsupported myth.

No it's not. It's called designed and created.

Precise like molecular machines, assembly processes, 65 billion miles of code in human DNA if uncompressed, 37.2 trillion cells in human body,...... Imperfection is part of the intent of the design for this fallen world.

Beyond all of ours.

Yes it is and no it hasn't

Yes it is and no it hasn't.

System I see today is a mix of different types of machines and assembly processes which cannot be explained by random dumb luck chance.

No it is not. It is based on truth.

No it is not.
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13-06-2016, 09:36 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 09:27 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 09:17 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Can't argue scientific facts so resort to attempting to attack the Designer and the design. Old trick, different day. Seen this one.

And incessantly arguing over which non-Christian belief system Einstein held isn't a strawman at all, right?

Exactly how does proving that Einstein believed in a design help prove the Christian God's design since, as it has been mutually agreed upon, Einstein was not a Christian? It adds zero weight to your argument. You might as well be arguing the Norse creation story for weight.

Same old apologetic strawmen; new day.

Your atheist ally made the claim he was atheist and I responded. Is this the same guy new user name.
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13-06-2016, 09:38 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 09:31 PM)Dark Wanderer Wrote:  I'd like to hear the scientific fact that says god used dead animals as an example to Adam not to eat fruit. Sounds like it'd be interesting.

Based on the known age of animals and the first man, I interpret animal death existed and could have been an example when the Lord told Adam he would die. Maybe that is how Adam knew what death meant, is because he witnessed animal death.
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13-06-2016, 09:41 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
We have an Olympic Gold Metal Gymnast in our midst.

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13-06-2016, 09:46 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
That's it for the day. Take care.
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13-06-2016, 09:47 PM (This post was last modified: 13-06-2016 10:09 PM by jennybee.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 08:05 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 05:46 PM)jennybee Wrote:  God is not a righteous character in the Bible. He is anything but. Just read Deuteronomy and you'll find some pretty horrific things that will happen to you for disobedience to God. The definition of righteous is morally justifiable. Have you read the story about God's punishment of the rape of David's wives by his son and death of David's baby--all as a result of *David's* sin. Not righteous in the least. The Bible is filled with God's unrighteous acts.

Not all religions believe in heaven or a heaven. You are going to find some similarities and differences in all religions--especially in nearby cultures as it was quite common for one culture to take and morph other religions of the time and call it their own.

I read it all. In Deuteronomy laws and rules are laid down.

God is the absolute standard of righteousness and justice. Sin and disobedience to the Lord carries a penalty often but the Lord is also very forgiving. When God kills someone He is transferring them from this existence to the next. God is the Creator of all of us and death is a part of life as punishment for sin. Truly believe and follow the Son of God (co-equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit in the Godhead) and you die once, since He freely took on your sins to save you from a second death. Those that do not die twice.

Christianity is the religion which has the creation story which matches up with science and which prophesies (foretells) thousands of years of this world's history, sometimes centuries and millennium in advance. Even lesser known prophesies are in the Bible, such as the relationship between Cleopatra and Caesar described hundreds of years prior to their birth. There are tons of them. The U.S. is prophesied as is the Catholic Church, Greece, Medio-Persia, Rome kingdoms. Jesus fulfills over 100 Old Testament prophesies for the Messiah, etc. Some prophecies are symbolic but there are keys to understand the symbols:

http://www.bibleprophecytruth.com/topics/bible-symbols

Science proves design which is where it plateaus. From there theology is needed. Christianity is the theological and final answer.

The OT is not talking about Jesus. It never was. Christians took passages out of context and twisted them to fit Jesus. If you read the passages in the OT in their correct context, it makes much more sense that they were never talking about Jesus.

The prophecies in the Bible are talking about events taking place in their own time. Not things happening many, many years in the future. Again if you read the Bible in its correct context, read "prophecies" in their correct historical context, the Bible makes much more sense. If you don't and take passages out of context, you can literally find the Bible predicting anything and everything due to the way it is written.

The creation story does not line up with science. A talking snake and the human race created out of dust and a rib. Not too mention the slew of other things that are not consistent which again Christians love to try and twist to line up with science in the most creative possible ways.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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13-06-2016, 09:57 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 09:26 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 09:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  And from that article:
"So don’t believe the reports that suggest Einstein wasn’t an atheist. He may have dismissed the word, but it’s not like he spent any time praying or thinking about God."

That's right, he was deist. He did not believe in a personal organized religion God but he was not atheist has been and still is my point.

Re-read the quote - it doesn't say what you seem to think it says.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-06-2016, 10:07 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 09:38 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 09:31 PM)Dark Wanderer Wrote:  I'd like to hear the scientific fact that says god used dead animals as an example to Adam not to eat fruit. Sounds like it'd be interesting.

Based on the known age of animals and the first man, I interpret animal death existed and could have been an example when the Lord told Adam he would die. Maybe that is how Adam knew what death meant, is because he witnessed animal death.

Where's the sciencey part?
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13-06-2016, 10:38 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 09:16 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  There is no way around the absolute precision, astounding specificity, and astonishing complexity of the living system. It is so precise, specific, and complex, it is beyond comprehension and then on top of all that, it is irreducibly complex, meaning one component fails and the system fails or is degraded. Then the universe is un-imaginably fine-tuned. Next step, theology.

See my response post to those earlier videos for my take on that.

The Genesis 30 story is a miracle performed. See the interpretation below:
https://www.quora.com/How-do-biblical-li...s-30-37-39

* It is not absolutely precise.
* Astounding specificity means nothing.
* Complexity is not argument, in and of itself, for design, unless you can demonstrate that it is physically impossible for it to have come into existence through natural mechanisms. Merely suggesting that it doesn't seem to be able to do so is not an argument.

As to the "miracle" explanation, the argument you (and that apologist) offered, about how Jacob/Laban "saw" the speckles due to some kind of magical optical illusion, isn't even close to what the Bible says, there. It says, quote:

37 Then Jacob took fresh sticks of poplar and almond and plane trees, and peeled white streaks in them, exposing the white of the sticks. 38 He set the sticks that he had peeled in front of the flocks in the troughs, that is, the watering places, where the flocks came to drink. And since they bred when they came to drink, 39 the flocks bred in front of the sticks and so the flocks brought forth striped, speckled, and spotted.

Emphasis mine. It clearly and unequivocally states that it was breeding in front of the sticks that caused them to bring forth striped and speckled and spotted sheep. It's Lamarckian inheritance in action-- change the environment and you change the offspring.

Except that's simply not how it works. Alluding to magical intervention not only is a lazy explanation, it defies what the next few verses say about Jacob:

40 And Jacob separated the lambs and set the faces of the flocks toward the striped and all the black in the flock of Laban. He put his own droves apart and did not put them with Laban's flock. 41 Whenever the stronger of the flock were breeding, Jacob would lay the sticks in the troughs before the eyes of the flock, that they might breed among the sticks, 42 but for the feebler of the flock he would not lay them there. So the feebler would be Laban's, and the stronger Jacob's. 43 Thus the man increased greatly and had large flocks, female servants and male servants, and camels and donkeys.

The passage makes it quite clear that it was the cleverness of Jacob, and not an intervention by God, that causes this to happen, resulting in the cattle-wealth of the founder of Israel. Note how the passage says "when they were breeding", and "that they might breed among the sticks". It is clear as day that this passage refers to changing the environment in front of the breeding sheep so they might breed lambs he can keep in his own flocks, per Lamarckian adaptation. It is dishonest of both you and the apologist in your link to suggest that this is discussing a miracle. It is a mistake made by a science-ignorant people (as everyone was prior to Mendel, on this subject), and you cannot be honest about what it says because to you it's impossible that the Bible could have mistakes in it about science.

How, then can we expect you to honestly evaluate the evidence provided by the natural world, with such bias?

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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13-06-2016, 10:42 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
Also, hi there KC! I've missed seeing ya around here. Smile

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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