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Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
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14-06-2016, 05:15 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 09:36 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Your atheist ally made the claim he was atheist and I responded. Is this the same guy new user name.

Go fuck yourself.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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14-06-2016, 05:23 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 09:27 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  And incessantly arguing over which non-Christian belief system Einstein held isn't a strawman at all, right?

...

Same old apologetic strawmen; new day.

The poster keeps linking to a "science" based website. On their front page is a quote from Einstein, clearly intended to add credence to their position. Using the world's most famous scientist to imply that he was a) religious and b) that science and religion were compatible.

It is extremely misleading.

I called Einstein an atheist because he specifically used that term to describe himself in at least one verified quote.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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14-06-2016, 05:28 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 09:23 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 09:10 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  In regards to your god, Einstein said he was an atheist.


Why do theists insist on using lies and half truths?

Einstein was deist not atheist.

You are here proselytizing for your bible and your christian god.

As far as the Judeo-Christian god, Einstein said he was an atheist.

What part of this do you not understand?

Einstein did not believe in miracles. He did not believe in a personal god.

Every twist you put on it, every lie you tell regarding it, weakens your position further.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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14-06-2016, 05:37 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 08:56 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 08:39 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  So sin, death and disease entered the world after Adam ate the fruit?

That's a falsifiable statement.


Do we know anything about the kinds of diseases that affected dinosaurs?


"Infections were quite rare; there are only isolated known examples, which have been observed in Dilophosaurus, Troodon, Camptosaurus, Allosaurus, as well as duckbill and horned dinosaurs. The most famous instance of infection might be the skull of a duckbill dinosaur (a Lambeosaurus) which shows a dental abscess. Given the size of a duckbill dinosaur's tooth row, that must have hurt!

So there you have it, dinosaurs, who lived long before humans, had diseases.

Also, this details an age range spanning multiple species from about 185 mya to 65 mya.

Do you understand what this means?

That means that death, disease and suffering existed long before humans existed. Even before the apple tree existed!

There have been 5 major extinction events in the Earth's past. Death on an unimaginable scale dating back to 450 mya.

This simply doesn't fit your mythological narrative presented in the bible.

This leaves you with a few options:

1. Ignore the evidence
2. Reinterpret the Genesis story to match science
3. Dismiss Genesis as mere metaphor
4. Double down and default to "mystery"
5. Accept the evidence and realize it doesn't match this story

Only one of these is the honest option. Drinking Beverage

Death entered the world for man after the fall. I believe there was animal death prior to the fall of man. I believe that is how Adam knew what God meant when He told him that if he ate from the tree of knowledge he would surely die. I think animal death was the example. God knows all and in my interpretation, he knew, despite Adam seeing the example of animal death, he would still disobey. Jesus, Son of God, came to this earth to redeem us from this fall.

I believe Adam walked the earth somewhere between 50,000 - 200,000 years ago. I believe the genealogy in the Bible from Adam to Abraham are just the key highlights of descendants (great grandfathers,...). I believe the Neanderthals and the like were like monkeys and belonged to the animal kingdom and Adam and Eve were the first modern humans which all our DNA traces back to.

I believe Ellen White created the ridiculous 6000 year old earth (Young Earth Creationism) to make Christianity appear as if it is based on a weak argument. I believe she was a false prophetess and deliberately created this view as a straw man to be easily knocked down. She made up many other rules and false interpretations and made it more difficult for people to come to Christianity. She made/makes her Christian followers lives hard with all these rules as well and adds on to God's commands which is strictly forbidden.

You chose number 2 - You are dishonest, fortunately your dishonesty works only on you, it's not going to fly on this forum.

I notice that you want to pretend to accept science, saying that our DNA goes back to the mythical Adam and Eve.

It goes back further than that, it goes back to non-human primate ancestors up to and including endogenous retroviruses.

Understand what that means?

We inherited the genetic markers of viruses from our primate ancestors, long before humans existed, these viral markers were in primates and they were passed down to us.

1.Viruses existed before humans and were in the DNA of our primate ancestors.

2.We inherited these same DNA.

Three Layers of Endogenous Retroviral Evidence for the Evolutionary Model

Your mythology does not stand up to scientific evidence.

But you'll no doubt just make up more stories to try to reconcile science with myth.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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14-06-2016, 05:48 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
the whole idea of the universe needing to be finely tuned cracks me up. so god just haphazardly tossed the shit out there, then had to make adjustments to his sloppy work? id like to see a universe that is not so finely tuned in order to compare.
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14-06-2016, 06:15 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 07:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Hence, specified complexity of living systems and molecular machines means they are both 1.clearly and precisely identified and 2. intricate and complicated.
The DNA to molecular machines are beyond that even. They are so precise and so complex it boggles the mind. A fully functional 747 is a joke in comparison to how these micro-machines were built and operate.

That is still a meaningless phrase. Nobody argues that they aren't identified or complex. The issue is the apparent claim that that means something. What this boils down to is an argument from personal incredulity. All you are saying is that you don't understand how things got that complicated so it must have been a god. The people who devote their lives to these things don't generally come to that same conclusion because they see how simple things can evolve into more complicated things. The complexity that baffles you is explained by science.

Quote:If constants of universe were different, life would not exist.
No, if one of the over 20 constants were off, life would not exist.
This is the only universe we know of or have any evidence for.

I agree that this is the only universe we know of or have any evidence for. A sample size of one is insufficient for drawing conclusions about what is possible. You have not demonstrated that the constants CAN be different or that they are not interlinked in some way such that you can't vary them individually. What this boils down to is an argument from ignorance. We don't know, therefore god did it. Fallacies are not a good basis for conclusions.


(13-06-2016 08:16 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  There are also governmental rules and laws in the Bible as well; which is where eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth come from by the way.

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is a primitive, barbaric practice and nothing to be proud of.

Quote:Regarding fear being a part of leadership, it is absolutely one of three key ingredients to have people follow you. If people just trust and love you, they will not necessarily respect you, honor you, or follow you.

If you are unable to respect, honor, or follow people that you love and trust without also fearing them then I feel very sorry for you. A system based on fear is unstable as sooner or later somebody is going to rebel.

Quote:Look at a pack of wolves. They love, trust, and fear their leaders and they follow them anywhere. Even ancient dogs know this, why some people don't, possibly could be too much intellectual and not enough spiritual and instinctual.

I'd need a citation before I accept your description of wolf emotions but, even if I grant them for the sake of discussion it doesn't really matter. I don't hold wolf packs as the ideal basis for a society. We evolved as social animals and our instincts (for lack of a better term) are similar in many ways to other social species but some of us also evolved the ability to reason about morality and can rise above pure instinct.

(13-06-2016 09:25 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 09:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your opinion is not an argument. The evidence is all against you.

Nah, I disagree.

That pretty much sums up your entire position. All you have offered so far is arguments from ignorance and debunked claims like the laughable irreducible complexity. You actually seem to be fairly intelligent and it is sad to see somebody so brainwashed by relious dogma that they can't separate reality from fiction.

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14-06-2016, 10:16 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 04:18 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(11-06-2016 07:23 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I hope you one day realize how arrogant and self-righteous you're being and stop. My hopes aren't high though Drinking Beverage

That statement would only be arrogant and self-righteous if I meant it in a condescending way. I did not intend it that way. There are people on here who seem to have a hardened heart against the truth of scientific proof of design of living systems and the universe and also have a resentment toward the Lord. So I meant it, that it does appear that way, similar to as stated in the Scriptures.

I also meant it when I said I pray you repent and turn to the Lord for salvation. I am a believer in the Scriptures and this is very important based on my theological views so I really did pray for that immediately after writing this. I believe we have the same Creator and we are both his children so I care and pray for you, that you repent.

This is why my hopes weren't high that you'd realize your arrogance and ignorance. Your religious mind is determined to find a way to convolute reality into conforming with your confirmation bias. What you call "obvious" is only obviously your religious opinion.

It's pretty simple really, not one piece of scientific evidence has ever been presented to substantiate ID/creationism or provide adequate argument against evolution or abiogenesis.

Pray for a brain and when you do, tell your "god" I said to "go fuck it-/her-/himself.

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15-06-2016, 06:51 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 09:47 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 08:05 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  I read it all. In Deuteronomy laws and rules are laid down.

God is the absolute standard of righteousness and justice. Sin and disobedience to the Lord carries a penalty often but the Lord is also very forgiving. When God kills someone He is transferring them from this existence to the next. God is the Creator of all of us and death is a part of life as punishment for sin. Truly believe and follow the Son of God (co-equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit in the Godhead) and you die once, since He freely took on your sins to save you from a second death. Those that do not die twice.

Christianity is the religion which has the creation story which matches up with science and which prophesies (foretells) thousands of years of this world's history, sometimes centuries and millennium in advance. Even lesser known prophesies are in the Bible, such as the relationship between Cleopatra and Caesar described hundreds of years prior to their birth. There are tons of them. The U.S. is prophesied as is the Catholic Church, Greece, Medio-Persia, Rome kingdoms. Jesus fulfills over 100 Old Testament prophesies for the Messiah, etc. Some prophecies are symbolic but there are keys to understand the symbols:

http://www.bibleprophecytruth.com/topics/bible-symbols

Science proves design which is where it plateaus. From there theology is needed. Christianity is the theological and final answer.

The OT is not talking about Jesus. It never was. Christians took passages out of context and twisted them to fit Jesus. If you read the passages in the OT in their correct context, it makes much more sense that they were never talking about Jesus.

The prophecies in the Bible are talking about events taking place in their own time. Not things happening many, many years in the future. Again if you read the Bible in its correct context, read "prophecies" in their correct historical context, the Bible makes much more sense. If you don't and take passages out of context, you can literally find the Bible predicting anything and everything due to the way it is written.

The creation story does not line up with science. A talking snake and the human race created out of dust and a rib. Not too mention the slew of other things that are not consistent which again Christians love to try and twist to line up with science in the most creative possible ways.

A huge focus of the Old Testament is on the coming Messiah. This is Christianity and Judaism 101. Jesus is that Messiah.

Read Isiah 53: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=KJV

Read:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prophchr.html

There is a ton of prophecy in the Bible. Read Daniel and Revelation. The year Jesus would be baptised and then crucified is in the Book of Daniel (600 years prior to it happening), as are many other prophecies. Book of Daniel is filled with astounding time based prophecies.

Creation story lines up with science. See chart below for Day-Age interpretation:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/day-age.html
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15-06-2016, 06:58 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 08:56 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Death entered the world for man after the fall. I believe there was animal death prior to the fall of man. I believe that is how Adam knew what God meant when He told him that if he ate from the tree of knowledge he would surely die. I think animal death was the example. God knows all and in my interpretation, he knew, despite Adam seeing the example of animal death, he would still disobey. Jesus, Son of God, came to this earth to redeem us from this fall.

I believe Adam walked the earth somewhere between 50,000 - 200,000 years ago. I believe the genealogy in the Bible from Adam to Abraham are just the key highlights of descendants (great grandfathers,...). I believe the Neanderthals and the like were like monkeys and belonged to the animal kingdom and Adam and Eve were the first modern humans which all our DNA traces back to.

I believe Ellen White created the ridiculous 6000 year old earth (Young Earth Creationism) to make Christianity appear as if it is based on a weak argument. I believe she was a false prophetess and deliberately created this view as a straw man to be easily knocked down. She made up many other rules and false interpretations and made it more difficult for people to come to Christianity. She made/makes her Christian followers lives hard with all these rules as well and adds on to God's commands which is strictly forbidden.
And you can go on believing all that but considering you have exactly no evidence to support any of that superstitious nonsense it makes you an irrational person with poor critical thinking skills.


As to your "god knew adam would fail anyway blah blah blah"..... If I create a crib in such away as to insure that it kills every baby put in it... the fault is not with the crib but with me for designing it that way.
If Jesus has any sins to forgive it's with the Designer not the design you addled twat.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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15-06-2016, 07:01 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(13-06-2016 10:38 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 09:16 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  There is no way around the absolute precision, astounding specificity, and astonishing complexity of the living system. It is so precise, specific, and complex, it is beyond comprehension and then on top of all that, it is irreducibly complex, meaning one component fails and the system fails or is degraded. Then the universe is un-imaginably fine-tuned. Next step, theology.

See my response post to those earlier videos for my take on that.

The Genesis 30 story is a miracle performed. See the interpretation below:
https://www.quora.com/How-do-biblical-li...s-30-37-39

* It is not absolutely precise.
* Astounding specificity means nothing.
* Complexity is not argument, in and of itself, for design, unless you can demonstrate that it is physically impossible for it to have come into existence through natural mechanisms. Merely suggesting that it doesn't seem to be able to do so is not an argument.

As to the "miracle" explanation, the argument you (and that apologist) offered, about how Jacob/Laban "saw" the speckles due to some kind of magical optical illusion, isn't even close to what the Bible says, there. It says, quote:

37 Then Jacob took fresh sticks of poplar and almond and plane trees, and peeled white streaks in them, exposing the white of the sticks. 38 He set the sticks that he had peeled in front of the flocks in the troughs, that is, the watering places, where the flocks came to drink. And since they bred when they came to drink, 39 the flocks bred in front of the sticks and so the flocks brought forth striped, speckled, and spotted.

Emphasis mine. It clearly and unequivocally states that it was breeding in front of the sticks that caused them to bring forth striped and speckled and spotted sheep. It's Lamarckian inheritance in action-- change the environment and you change the offspring.

Except that's simply not how it works. Alluding to magical intervention not only is a lazy explanation, it defies what the next few verses say about Jacob:

40 And Jacob separated the lambs and set the faces of the flocks toward the striped and all the black in the flock of Laban. He put his own droves apart and did not put them with Laban's flock. 41 Whenever the stronger of the flock were breeding, Jacob would lay the sticks in the troughs before the eyes of the flock, that they might breed among the sticks, 42 but for the feebler of the flock he would not lay them there. So the feebler would be Laban's, and the stronger Jacob's. 43 Thus the man increased greatly and had large flocks, female servants and male servants, and camels and donkeys.

The passage makes it quite clear that it was the cleverness of Jacob, and not an intervention by God, that causes this to happen, resulting in the cattle-wealth of the founder of Israel. Note how the passage says "when they were breeding", and "that they might breed among the sticks". It is clear as day that this passage refers to changing the environment in front of the breeding sheep so they might breed lambs he can keep in his own flocks, per Lamarckian adaptation. It is dishonest of both you and the apologist in your link to suggest that this is discussing a miracle. It is a mistake made by a science-ignorant people (as everyone was prior to Mendel, on this subject), and you cannot be honest about what it says because to you it's impossible that the Bible could have mistakes in it about science.

How, then can we expect you to honestly evaluate the evidence provided by the natural world, with such bias?

Matthew Henry gives many great commentaries. Below is his commentary on these verses. This was performed by God and as a token of His power.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

30:25-43 The fourteen years being gone, Jacob was willing to depart without any provision, except God's promise. But he had in many ways a just claim on Laban's substance, and it was the will of God that he should be provided for from it. He referred his cause to God, rather than agree for stated wages with Laban, whose selfishness was very great. And it would appear that he acted honestly, when none but those of the colours fixed upon should be found among his cattle. Laban selfishly thought that his cattle would produce few different in colour from their own. Jacob's course after this agreement has been considered an instance of his policy and management. But it was done by intimation from God, and as a token of his power. The Lord will one way or another plead the cause of the oppressed, and honour those who simply trust his providence. Neither could Laban complain of Jacob, for he had nothing more than was freely agreed that he should have; nor was he injured, but greatly benefitted by Jacob's services. May all our mercies be received with thanksgiving and prayer, that coming from his bounty, they may lead to his praise.

The LORD Exists: http://www.godandscience.org/
Intelligent Design (Short Video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVkdQhNdzHU
Intelligent Design (Longer Video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzj8iXiVDT8
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