Poll: How do we get them to see the truth?
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Peacefull reasoning 69.23% 9 69.23%
Full attack of facts 30.77% 4 30.77%
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Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
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05-06-2016, 05:51 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(04-06-2016 09:25 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(04-06-2016 07:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  I see presupposition is alive and thriving in you. Drinking Beverage

Also making shit up. Where in the Torah does it say any of that? Nowhere.

Where am I making shit up? I'll try to source my shit for you.

"Judaism teaches that G-d offered the Torah to every group of people prior to offering it to the Jews."

Made up from whole cloth, a fabrication.

When the books don't have the answers, make shit up.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-06-2016, 06:24 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(04-06-2016 07:27 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  But to let my family members (not only my folks) live forever without the chance to know the universe as I see it is to do them a great disservice, I think.

Hmmmm. Christians say: "But to let my family members (not only my folks) live forever without the chance to know god as I see him is to do them a great disservice, I think. "

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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05-06-2016, 06:35 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
Define a fact: theory that get expired by time as newer theory or fact has been proven

I think it's logic to stick to what doesn't change by time
Specially if two things dont conflict
And most of time the changing part-facts- proves my beliefs every time a newer theory comes up
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05-06-2016, 06:46 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(05-06-2016 06:35 AM)dimmu.borgir Wrote:  Define a fact: theory that get expired by time as newer theory or fact has been proven

I think it's logic to stick to what doesn't change by time
Specially if two things dont conflict
And most of time the changing part-facts- proves my beliefs every time a newer theory comes up

I think it's more reasonable to accept the explanation that best fits all the available evidence but be willing to change when new evidence is uncovered. I also think it is illogical to accept explanations for which there is no good evidence which is where religious claims generally fail miserably.

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05-06-2016, 07:01 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(05-06-2016 06:46 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(05-06-2016 06:35 AM)dimmu.borgir Wrote:  Define a fact: theory that get expired by time as newer theory or fact has been proven

I think it's logic to stick to what doesn't change by time
Specially if two things dont conflict
And most of time the changing part-facts- proves my beliefs every time a newer theory comes up

I think it's more reasonable to accept the explanation that best fits all the available evidence but be willing to change when new evidence is uncovered. I also think it is illogical to accept explanations for which there is no good evidence which is where religious claims generally fail miserably.

I totally agree with the first part, but with the science and engineering evolution what's a well proven as fact today ,might be wrong tomorrow
If you said a hundred years ago that newton was wrong you have been probably burnt in the atheist temple Wink

What I mean is I can't apply matter laws on non matter stuff , its not even logical argument to my mind
I think the more science I learn the easier I can accept that there's a lot I can't see in the universe
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05-06-2016, 07:02 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(04-06-2016 10:40 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Judaism teaches that G-d offered the Torah to every group of people prior to offering it to the Jews. So if, according to Jewish teaching, all other people were offered the same stories and ideas prior to the writing of the Torah (according to Judaism, some 3,500 years ago), then why should a Jewish audience be surprised when the Epic of Gilgamesh pops up?

Atheists who present this argument to Jewish people seem to expect that we’re going to be stunned into silence and have the fabric of our culture and region somehow cast into doubt because of this. In reality, Jewish people view this information as validation of our religious beliefs.

That is a mindset that I could never understand. It makes complete sense that various peoples told similar stories and that they sometimes borrowed and reworked details to embellish and personalize their own tales. The presupposition that a god has to exist and that something is needed to provide support for that when much simpler explanations are quite sufficient is just baffling to me. The convolutions that theists go through to preserve a space for a god to fit in are just amazing sometimes.

Quote:I strongly support science and actual evidence (archaeological, historical, etc) being introduced to religious people, because at least for Judaism, if something is a fact (as opposed to interpretation), the vast majority of Jewish movements absolutely will reinterpret texts in light of the new information.

The question is why re-interpret the texts to force them to incorporate new facts. They would retain their cultural and historical value and they would still impart the same lessons even if everybody admitted that they were just the mythology of the early Hebrews. Why is the security blanket so tightly grasped?

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05-06-2016, 07:17 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(05-06-2016 07:01 AM)dimmu.borgir Wrote:  I totally agree with the first part, but with the science and engineering evolution what's a well proven as fact today ,might be wrong tomorrow
If you said a hundred years ago that newton was wrong you have been probably burnt in the atheist temple Wink

It sounds like you have some basic misunderstandings about science. Science refines and extends knowledge and, sometimes, largely replaces what it thought was the best explanation with a better one. That's not just good, it is amazing. We understand the universe we live in more and more every day. Being able to admit that you were wrong is how you learn.

As far as burning somebody for disagreeing, that's the province of believers, not scientists. Scientists may mock or ignore but they don't torture each other for having competing hypotheses. They have, however, often run the risk of having that done to them by the church when they questioned religious dogma.

By the way, you do realize that Newtonian physics is still used today because it is accurate enough in many cases, right? Relativity refines the results in extreme situations but it didn't prove Newton "wrong" so much as limited.

Quote:What I mean is I can't apply matter laws on non matter stuff , its not even logical argument to my mind

I do not know what you mean by "non matter stuff".

Quote:I think the more science I learn the easier I can accept that there's a lot I can't see in the universe

I totally agree with that. The difference is that I'm looking forward to science filling in more details. I'm not satisfied with just making up something that sounds good and pretending that I have some kind of ultimate answer when I have no good reason to believe it.

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05-06-2016, 07:59 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(05-06-2016 07:17 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(05-06-2016 07:01 AM)dimmu.borgir Wrote:  I totally agree with the first part, but with the science and engineering evolution what's a well proven as fact today ,might be wrong tomorrow
If you said a hundred years ago that newton was wrong you have been probably burnt in the atheist temple Wink

It sounds like you have some basic misunderstandings about science. Science refines and extends knowledge and, sometimes, largely replaces what it thought was the best explanation with a better one. That's not just good, it is amazing. We understand the universe we live in more and more every day. Being able to admit that you were wrong is how you learn.

As far as burning somebody for disagreeing, that's the province of believers, not scientists. Scientists may mock or ignore but they don't torture each other for having competing hypotheses. They have, however, often run the risk of having that done to them by the church when they questioned religious dogma.

By the way, you do realize that Newtonian physics is still used today because it is accurate enough in many cases, right? Relativity refines the results in extreme situations but it didn't prove Newton "wrong" so much as limited.

Quote:What I mean is I can't apply matter laws on non matter stuff , its not even logical argument to my mind

I do not know what you mean by "non matter stuff".

Quote:I think the more science I learn the easier I can accept that there's a lot I can't see in the universe

I totally agree with that. The difference is that I'm looking forward to science filling in more details. I'm not satisfied with just making up something that sounds good and pretending that I have some kind of ultimate answer when I have no good reason to believe it.

You can't accuse one by the action of others
I don't claim all athiests are like the ones who had the biggest portion in rape of Berlin , which is the world record in mass rape

Newton is totally wrong according to Einstein not just not accurate , but his laws can do well in our scales but they still wrong

I didn't say I should stop learning at some point, science will be forever endless cause if I'm a creation I will never reach my creator wisdom,I'll keep trying but I will never reach,... This is valid till now, we didnt know everything around us, actually we don't even know a thing yet , what we know is so little ,

Till now creator fringerptints is everywhere around ,

Non-matter stuff , the most simple example is the mathematical zero , the nothing , no time no place , zero dimension, we can use it to solve problem but I can't have a physical representation for it, some people accepted it and called it eternity way before Einstein makes it mathematically acceptable

For me that's weak approach , I like to separate both things ,I love science its amazing but its so poor cause it made by us, we can't explain daily routine processes using science , how can I use it to solve problems like after eternity and after death

What was before big bang if its true can't be solved by analytic science
And I believed in multi universes and that universe gonna collapse before I learnt it from another human -who can be mistakable in his theory and probably will when his theory expires
And it's always amazing learning that science and my beliefs don't contride, it just make my beliefs get stronger
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05-06-2016, 08:08 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
How do you get them to see the truth? I don't know, but I tend to assume that nothing I say or do will change their mind, be it peaceful or otherwise.

It took time and a lot of self reflection in a judgement-free zone away from the religion that indoctrinated me and the hometown it happened in in order to move away from theism. (Took the same thing for my wife and sister-in-law too. I didn't de-convert them, but I did answer questions once they felt free to ask them because they knew I wasn't judging them)

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05-06-2016, 08:16 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(05-06-2016 06:35 AM)dimmu.borgir Wrote:  I think it's logic to stick to what doesn't change by time

Because?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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