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Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
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17-06-2016, 05:21 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(16-06-2016 10:29 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(16-06-2016 10:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  My point exactly. You don't understand natural selection or evolution. Really, you need to read a real science book.

I've read more science books than you care to imagine. Provide references for your replicating molecules.

Read this please...

If you've actually read as much as you say you have, you'll realize how molecular constructs can even self animate, just because of the laws of physics - much like building some basic magnetically powered lego contraption.
All life needed to start itself was self replicating molecules. Hell, even your cells use replicated, self animated molecules called motor molecules like Myosin, complex protein molecules that are literally animated machines.
Molecular Machines

That is what makes up life.

The process which leads to the complex molecules we know today in living organisms is evolution.
The rules of evolution even effect molecular biology - such as DNA, RNA and those complex motor proteins that are the back bone of our cell's internal factory workforce.
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17-06-2016, 06:46 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(16-06-2016 10:29 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(16-06-2016 10:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  My point exactly. You don't understand natural selection or evolution. Really, you need to read a real science book.

I've read more science books than you care to imagine.

On evolution? If so, you didn't understand them.

Quote:Provide references for your replicating molecules.

Replicators

And more replicators

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-06-2016, 09:50 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
Wow, I missed that... he posted that the Neandertals "belong in the animal kingdom"?

And he wrote this just after I wrote extensively about how they came from the same Homo erectus that we did, that we interbred with them, and that we still contain some of their DNA in our genome?

That's... impressive.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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18-06-2016, 05:55 AM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2016 06:13 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
So the assertion of goddidit in regards to molecular evolution can be compared to the scientific answer of natural evolution without a deity guiding it.

So when a virus mutates to circumvent vaccines we develop, here are the competing explanations:

Goddidit: Sin entered the world after Adam ate an apple causing god to lose control of his creation at the molecular level.

Natural evolution: Organisms adapt to survive, this process shows up down to the molecular level of viruses.

One tries to ram an entire mythological construct into the explanation and it's easy to see the flaws in the mythological construct.

We have evidence of disease, suffering, death, etc. in dinosaur fossils, there's an entire field of science dedicated to this field of research - Paleopathology

This falsifies the mythological explanation.

We can also extend this to larger organisms, what would you expect to see if the goddidit assertion was the correct one for larger organisms?

Probably a clear evolutionary direction towards the culmination of humans, if an ID universe is true, we really shouldn't see any evolutionary changes in other animals, god would only be tinkering with humans.
A tinkering that is necessary because god can't get it right the first time and doesn't know the results until he tinkers with his creation. Seriously? Laugh out load

What would we expect to see if a natural process; with no guidance from a deity, is true?

A hallmark of such a process would be evolution that has no direction. Do we see examples of evolution that just meanders with no purpose? Of course! Every species that has gone extinct!

We can even get more specific, the evolution of the whale:

[Image: whale_evo.jpg]

The whale came from a land animal, which came from an earlier animal that lived in the ocean.

The evolution of whales


This is clear evidence of a meandering process that has no designer conferring his purpose upon his creation.

If you have to contrive a mythological Rube Goldberg explanation to explain whale evolution, that should be a red flag that that explanation is implausible and shouldn't be taken seriously.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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20-06-2016, 03:22 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(16-06-2016 11:18 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  CDF - You're describing two different things, as if they are the same thing, is his point. Evolution is a process that only works on replicating things, including DNA and its predecessors. The formation of replicating molecules is a separate question that has nothing to do with evolution. They are connected in the same way that the mechanics of stellar accretion/formation and the process of nuclear fusion are connected, but they are different fields.

In expressing evolution the way you do, you are making it very clear to us that you do not even understand some of the most basic principles about what evolution actually is. It is why he keeps asking you to read a book.

I understand evolution, it is not that complicated in the basic sense. My point is, natural selection acting on random variations among chemicals to produce the first life is not possible.

Natural selection also cannot explain the 65 billion miles long string of "information" (if uncompressed) which exist inside the human body and which programs specified and complex systems to be manufactured and operated. There is only one explanation for that and that is a Designer.
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20-06-2016, 03:23 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
The popular mainstream Dr. Kaku is now admitting it is obvious the universe is designed:

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/barbara-...evidence-0
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20-06-2016, 03:30 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
Regarding our previous discussion on the hardening of Pharaoh's heart, it is clear that Pharaoh was hardening his heart when the entire story is read. I just re-read some of it today:

And Moses said, Behold, I go out from thee, and I will intreat the LORD that the swarms of flies may depart from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people, to morrow: but let not Pharaoh deal deceitfully any more in not letting the people go to sacrifice to the LORD. 30 And Moses went out from Pharaoh, and intreated the LORD. 31 And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; and he removed the swarms of flies from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people; there remained not one. 32And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Even after he was warned by his own people, Pharaoh refused to learn from the signs he was seeing from the Lord. His heart was hard so he did not even respond to obvious evidence like the plagues, the flies,..., which led to bad consequences for him.
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20-06-2016, 03:35 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(17-06-2016 05:08 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(16-06-2016 09:48 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Blind Dumb Luck Random Chance Definition:

Made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.

As far as Neanderthals, I think they belonged to the animal kingdom.

First:
Humans belong in the animal kingdom. This has been acknowledged since the 1700's. Greater minds than yours spent their entire careers trying to prove this wrong. Greater christian minds, I might add.

Second:
Your definition does not fit evolution. There is an element of chance, but the vast majority of the process is predictable according the known laws of genetics and chemistry.

Let me see a chimp solve a differential equation and then we can talk.

Ultimately, natural selection and evolution would have to exist in a random built universe with random constructed living systems. This is obviously not the case.
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20-06-2016, 03:39 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(17-06-2016 05:14 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(16-06-2016 10:06 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  No they haven't and they never will.

Saying "they never will" indicates your presupposition.

You clearly have no understanding about evolution in particular and science in general.

Considering all of the things that theists have sworn "would never happen", you also have a poor grasp on history.

At this point you are doing nothing more than showcasing your own ignorance.

You have way way too much faith that a random process can create a 4-digit code which can program manufacturing plants to place specific parts in specific order based on the code which is then transported and formed and installed in a machine as a part of a larger assembly which then is programmed to start it's function after all construction is complete. This is only example of this system. Also, if one of these parts of the machine fails, the machine either does not operate or is degraded in function. There are also energy harvesting type processes which I have not went much into detail on here.

There are spell checker type enzymes searching and correcting errors in the code, there is copying and transporting of the code. DNA has nested coding. DNA has a files within folders hierarchical structure. A senior software engineer with Microsoft once said DNA follows design strategies similar to those used by their software programmers but one far more advanced than they have been able to devise.

The specific genetic instructions to build a protein in even the simplest one celled organism would fill hundreds of pages of printed text.

Approximately 3 percent of DNA encodes protein sequences and the other 97 percent is noncoding DNA. Noncoding DNA transcribes into functional non-coding RNA molecules (like transfer RNA, ribosomal RNA, and regulator RNAs). Other functions of noncoding DNA include transcriptional and translational regulation of protein-coding sequences, scaffold attachment regions, origins of DNA replication, centormeters and telomeres. This is no longer referred to as "junk DNA." That was an old term. The noncoding DNA is more like the operating system.

Watch the 3 minute and 34 second video below on how DNA works if you are interested (there is a real good and easy to understand computer generated model showing how DNA works in this short video):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVkdQhNdzHU

There is also the fine tuning of the entire universe. There are approximately 20 constants of the universe which are fine-tuned; such that, if these mathematical figures were off by the most smallest fraction of a percent, life as we know it would not exist. The most finely tuned figure is the cosmological constant (energy density of the vacuum of space) which is fine tuned to an order of magnitude of 1:10^120. If that figure was off by that small a value, there would be no life. To give you an idea of the size of that number, there are approximately 10^80 elementary particles in the known universe and there have been 10^16 seconds since the creation of the universe in the Big Bang approximately 13.8 billion years ago. By the way, back to DNA, the probability of building a short functional protein from amino acids is 1 X 10^164. Just amazing!
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20-06-2016, 03:42 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(20-06-2016 03:22 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  I understand evolution, it is not that complicated in the basic sense. My point is, natural selection acting on random variations among chemicals to produce the first life is not possible.

Natural selection also cannot explain the 65 billion miles long string of "information" (if uncompressed) which exist inside the human body and which programs specified and complex systems to be manufactured and operated. There is only one explanation for that and that is a Designer.

No. No, no, no. Natural Selection does not have anything to do with "the first life", except after it was formed and began to reproduce. Natural Selection only works on things that reproduce. It is literally only possible when you have a "gene pool"... as the things (DNA in most modern cases) reproduce, there are variations among them, and some of those variants will survive and reproduce more efficiently/frequently than others, based on factors in their environment (and a few other basic factors). That is what Natural Selection means, and nothing else. So, yet again, you have mis-stated what a major principle of biology means.

You keep using the phrase, "cannot explain". How can you possibly know that, if A) we humans haven't stopped learning everything about the natural world, and B) you have made it clear that you don't even have a strong grasp of basic biology?

Just repeating it over and over again, like some sort of mantra, does not make it more true. Seriously, what is wrong with you?!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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