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Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
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06-07-2016, 10:49 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(06-07-2016 09:28 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(06-07-2016 08:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  That statement is pretty much ignorant nonsense.


Specified? Pre-supposition.


Irreducible? Prove it.


Mud? No one thinks life was created from lightning striking mud. Straw man.


Panspermia explains nothing. Why would you even mention it?

Abiogenesis Remark Citation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

That article does not support your simplistic contentions. Try harder.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-07-2016, 02:16 AM (This post was last modified: 07-07-2016 02:51 AM by CDF47.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(06-07-2016 10:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-07-2016 09:28 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Abiogenesis Remark Citation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

That article does not support your simplistic contentions. Try harder.

Life came from either a random event, or as you keep insisting a series of a trillion random events, or by design.

Life is clearly designed. It is that simple. That's where Occam's razor need be applied. There is not enough faith in the history of mankind to ever believe in atheism since DNA and the fine-tuning of the universe were discovered.

The LORD Exists: http://www.godandscience.org/
Intelligent Design (Short Video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVkdQhNdzHU
Intelligent Design (Longer Video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzj8iXiVDT8
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07-07-2016, 06:53 AM (This post was last modified: 07-07-2016 02:38 PM by Aliza.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(06-07-2016 09:19 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Hello. I believe micro-evolution and mutation (some change over time) is part of the implementation of the design of living systems.

DNA is proof that living systems are designed and the fine tuning of the universe is proof that the entire universe is designed.

I’m a little concerned off the bat that you’re confusing looks-like-there-can’t-be-any-other-explanation with actual evidence that points to a designer.
Could you please provide some proof? Tests, studies, data, measurements… That sort of thing.

(06-07-2016 09:19 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  DNA is an extremely highly specified and complex code which provides the instructions for a nano-manufacturing plant to build proteins for living cells. Proteins have a wide range of function in the cell; such as, building components of the cell to harvesting energy.

There are complex molecular machines that are irreducibly complex, meaning if one part is removed or damaged in the system then the system is either degraded or fails to function.

It seems to me that if you remove a component of the cell, things will stop working properly, so I agree with you. But I’m not sure how removing a component from the cell points to a designer.

(06-07-2016 09:19 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  These machines in the cells of living systems are built part by part in a nano-manufacturing plant using the code inside the DNA molecule. There are codes instructing the machine to start assembling parts in specific orders and instructing when to stop the assembly. There are spell checker type enzymes searching and correcting errors in the code, there is copying and transporting of the code. DNA has nested coding. DNA has a files within folders hierarchical structure. A senior software engineer with Microsoft once said DNA follows design strategies similar to those used by their software programmers but one far more advanced than they have been able to devise.

The specific genetic instructions to build a protein in even the simplest one celled organism would fill hundreds of pages of printed text.

The senior software engineer sounds like he or she very impressed. I’m also impressed. I'm just not convinced.

(06-07-2016 09:19 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Approximately 3 percent of DNA encodes protein sequences and the other 97 percent is noncoding DNA. Noncoding DNA transcribes into functional non-coding RNA molecules (like transfer RNA, ribosomal RNA, and regulator RNAs). Other functions of noncoding DNA include transcriptional and translational regulation of protein-coding sequences, scaffold attachment regions, origins of DNA replication, centormeters and telomeres. This is no longer referred to as "junk DNA." That was an old term. The noncoding DNA is more like the operating system.

Watch the 3 minute and 34 second video below on how DNA works if you are interested (there is a real good and easy to understand computer generated model showing how DNA works in this short video):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVkdQhNdzHU

Another longer video is below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzj8iXiVDT8

I did watch the shorter video, but it basically just said how the protein encoding works. I’ve only taken an entry level college biology class, and it was a few years ago now. From what I recall, the video seems to go over the exact same material as was reviewed in freshman biology, a class designed for 18 year-olds. Unless I missed something, the video didn’t discuss a designer, just how the protein encoding process works.

I do not have the time in my schedule to watch the long version, unfortunately. Maybe you have some relevant time stamps for me to watch instead?

(06-07-2016 09:19 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Biochemical Predestination Theory creator threw out his own theory and is now a strong proponent of design of living systems:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrXf8KCJLMg

In 1980, Dr. Kenyon attempted in interject creation science into his curriculum. After being challenged by his colleagues at the University of San Francisco, Dr. Kenyon was unsuccessful in convincing them that creationism was a valid expression of science. Source: Wikipedia

In the video, Dr. Kenyon seems to be talking about how unlikely it is that the cell is not designed, but no evidence or data is presented. He’s a smart man with impressive credentials, but his religious views are his personal views. They cannot be substantiated.

(06-07-2016 09:19 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  There is also the fine tuning of the entire universe. There are approximately 20 constants of the universe which are fine-tuned; such that, if these mathematical figures were off by the most smallest fraction of a percent, life as we know it would not exist. The most finely tuned figure is the cosmological constant (energy density of the vacuum of space) which is fine tuned to an order of magnitude of 1:10^120. If that figure was off by that small a value, there would be no life. To give you an idea of the size of that number, there are approximately 10^80 elementary particles in the known universe and there have been 10^16 seconds since the creation of the universe in the Big Bang approximately 13.8 billion years ago. By the way, back to DNA, the probability of building a short functional protein from amino acids is 1 X 10^164. Just amazing!

I agree! It is amazing. I also agree that the appearance of a design is impressive, mind boggling and very possibly the work of a designer.

But here’s where we differ. Just because I think maybe the universe and the complexities of life are the work of a designer doesn’t mean that it is. There is actually another explanation; one that I can’t deny, and that is that things evolved naturally over a period of several billion years. The scenario that describes a natural evolution also impresses me, perhaps even more impressive to me than the designer scenario because we can point to and demonstrate the evolution. Does that dismiss the possibility of a designer? No. But there is no evidence what-so-ever to suggest that there is a designer. All evidence points only to natural evolution.

This seems to be a critical flaw in the creationist camp that just keeps coming up. When presented with the challenge of producing evidence of a designer, creationists consistently produce smoke and mirrors to distract their audience. It’s intellectually lazy and the only people they ever seem to convince are those without science backgrounds and without critical thinking skills themselves.

Maybe there is a designer! In fact, as a fellow theist, I think and I hope there is. But we’re standing on nothing and we need to recognize that. We need to separate what we think from what we can actually point to and demonstrate because the common ground between us and those who don’t think the same way we do are facts and evidence not feelings and hopes.
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07-07-2016, 06:56 AM (This post was last modified: 07-07-2016 05:23 PM by Chas.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(07-07-2016 02:16 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(06-07-2016 10:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  That article does not support your simplistic contentions. Try harder.

Life came from either a random event, or as you keep insisting a series of a trillion random events, or by design.

No, I insist no such thing. NATURAL SELECTION IS NOT RANDOM EVENTS.
It is the accumulation of changes that worked.

Quote:Life is clearly designed.

When you learn more about nature than your apparently Disney version, it will become clear that life is not designed.
Have you considered parasites, prions, plagues, piles, pancreatitis, Parkinson's, phenylketonuria, porphyria, or pubic lice?
If life was designed, it was designed by a malevolence.

Quote:It is that simple. That's where Occam's razor need be applied. There is not enough faith in the history of mankind to ever believe in atheism

Atheism is not a belief.

Quote:since DNA and the fine-tuning of the universe were discovered.

There is no fine-tuning - that is a ridiculous argument as has been previously shown.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-07-2016, 01:44 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(07-07-2016 06:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-07-2016 02:16 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  Life came from either a random event, or as you keep insisting a series of a trillion random events, or by design.

Life is clearly designed.

When you learn more about nature than your apparently Disney version, it will become clear that life is not designed.
Have you considered parasites, prions, plagues, piles, pancreatitis, Parkinson's, phenylketonuria, porphyria, or pubic lice?
If life was designed, it was designed by a malevolence.

That's where the Adam/apple excuse comes into play. Wait for it.....Facepalm

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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07-07-2016, 03:56 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(07-07-2016 02:16 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(06-07-2016 10:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  That article does not support your simplistic contentions. Try harder.

Life came from either a random event, or as you keep insisting a series of a trillion random events, or by design.

Life is clearly designed. It is that simple. That's where Occam's razor need be applied. There is not enough faith in the history of mankind to ever believe in atheism since DNA and the fine-tuning of the universe were discovered.

Life is flawed and clearly not designed. It is that simple.... phrasing out sentences like this and ignoring comments of direction on thinking paths to topics doesn't actually grow anything out of interaction.

If one wanted to apply occam's razor so swiftly to anything they wish it could go to say it's so simply clear any ultimate designer or fine tuner because it itself would need design/fine tuning to have an existence capable of doing such things. That idea circumvents itself instead of continuing to gather as many pieces of information as reachable.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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07-07-2016, 08:07 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(07-07-2016 06:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-07-2016 02:16 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  Life came from either a random event, or as you keep insisting a series of a trillion random events, or by design.

No, I insist no such thing. NATURAL SELECTION IS NOT RANDOM EVENTS.
It is the accumulation of changes that worked.

Quote:Life is clearly designed.

When you learn more about nature than your apparently Disney version, it will become clear that life is not designed.
Have you considered parasites, prions, plagues, piles, pancreatitis, Parkinson's, phenylketonuria, porphyria, or pubic lice?
If life was designed, it was designed by a malevolence.

Quote:It is that simple. That's where Occam's razor need be applied. There is not enough faith in the history of mankind to ever believe in atheism

Atheism is not a belief.

Quote:since DNA and the fine-tuning of the universe were discovered.

There is no fine-tuning - that is a ridiculous argument as has been previously shown.

And you just listed the "P"s . Starting from A for arthritis and working all the way to Z for the Zika virus the list goes into the many thousands.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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07-07-2016, 09:27 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(07-07-2016 02:16 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  Life came from either a random event, or as you keep insisting a series of a trillion random events, or by design.
Are you operating under the misapprehension that stupid shit becomes fact based on how repetitious the claimant is? 'Cause it don't.

This is the problem I have with you fucking creationists, you are just pig ignorant of history. How many times do you people need to be on the wrong end of things before you fucking learn? "Where does the wind come from?" "God did it!" (Wrong) "What causes lightning?" "God did it!" (Wrong).
Throughout the course of human history God has been, at one time or another, the cause of every single unexplained phenomena on this goodly earth. And every fucking time, when investigated to sufficient degree, it's been wrong. Laughably wrong. Never once have we had a good and scientificlly based explanation that has been over turned for "hey it's fucking magic guys!".
Yet here you are, in your child like ignorance, trying to tell us that "lightning clearly comes for a god". How many times do you idiots have to be wrong before you just shut the fuck up?

(07-07-2016 02:16 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  Life is clearly designed.
No it is not. The fact you are too stupid or lazy to grasp the nuance of the universe and it's functions does not mean your fuckin' space wizard suddenly becomes an answer.

(07-07-2016 02:16 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  That's where Occam's razor need be applied.
I agree....and when we do we find that natural forces (which we can demonstrate) working naturally has the fewer assumptions than an entity (which we can't demonstrate) which existed before time and space (which makes no sense and opens more questions than it answers) used magic (which we have NO examples of) and is thus the most likely.
I don't think you even understand what Occam's Razor means.


(07-07-2016 02:16 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  There is not enough faith in the history of mankind to ever believe in atheism since DNA and the fine-tuning of the universe were discovered.
Blah blah blah blah, we get it your a credulous and gullible idiot who can't properly utilize critical thinking and rational inquiry. Cry me a river, you fools are a dime a dozen.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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02-08-2016, 01:44 AM (This post was last modified: 02-08-2016 03:04 AM by CDF47.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
Have any of you read the Bible? I mean the entire Book, beginning to end. Have you studied it yourselves? If not, test it out. If you are busy, try a combination of listening to it on the way to work and back and reading it. I suggest the King James Version. The audio and written YouVersion Bible app is available on nearly all the different mobile devices for free. If you don't want to take my word for it, take the LORD's word for it and read the Book and then listen.

The LORD Exists: http://www.godandscience.org/
Intelligent Design (Short Video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVkdQhNdzHU
Intelligent Design (Longer Video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzj8iXiVDT8
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02-08-2016, 04:58 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(02-08-2016 01:44 AM)CDF47 Wrote:  Have any of you read the Bible? I mean the entire Book, beginning to end. Have you studied it yourselves? If not, test it out. If you are busy, try a combination of listening to it on the way to work and back and reading it. I suggest the King James Version. The audio and written YouVersion Bible app is available on nearly all the different mobile devices for free. If you don't want to take my word for it, take the LORD's word for it and read the Book and then listen.




Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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