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Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
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03-08-2017, 06:38 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(02-08-2017 03:39 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  No one can argue the science of molecular machines, the details of the information and processes of DNA and cells, the fine-tuned super symmetrical universe,............................., and say it is all random. Creation is obvious.

Do you actually know any atheists who argue "it is all random"? I don't, and I've been talking with them for years now.

Your assertion is a classic false dichotomy: either creation or random. What atheists (and scientists) actually maintain is that our apparently "designed" world came about through 1) self-organization, then 2) abiogenesis, then 3) evolution.

You have to prove that everything could not have come about through these three processes to say that "creation is obvious." You have not done so, you have only asserted it.
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03-08-2017, 09:57 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(02-08-2017 03:39 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  No one can argue the science of molecular machines, the details of the information and processes of DNA and cells, the fine-tuned super symmetrical universe,............................., and say it is all random. Creation is obvious.

Obvious is a weasel word. I do not see it as obvious at all, that some invisible, unverifiable being is required as an explanation for something that we do not understand or that has a complex history and explanation. I see that invisible-being explanation as an invented bed-time story, something that is designed to make people feel better. Not as something which we can take seriously.

What's so hard about saying "we don't know"? Is there some rule that says we must have all the answers, even if the answers are fairy tales?

By the way, I would say that it's obvious that the Bible is a concocted load of bullshit, so I'd advise you to be careful with the use of the word "obvious".

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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03-08-2017, 11:33 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(02-08-2017 03:39 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  No one can argue the science of molecular machines, the details of the information and processes of DNA and cells, the fine-tuned super symmetrical universe, and say it is all random. Creation is obvious.

So much fail in the above.

CDF, do you even chemistry? Anyone with a high-school credit in that science can tell you that it is the polar opposite of "random." Atoms and molecules fit together in fairly predictable patterns because of things like valence.

That includes DNA, by the way, which is simply an organic molecule aggregate constructed of nucleotides.

You also apparently don't know one fucking thing about either physical cosmology or astronomy. The universe is neither fine-tuned (except, perhaps, for the creation of black holes) nor "super symmetrical." The vast majority of space is, well, space. The anchor tenants are galaxies, containing a mind-boggling number of stars. (Oh, and the Andromeda Galaxy is on a collision course with our home galaxy, the Milky Way.)

This isn't design. Far from it.

Stop pretending you understand science -- You betray your ignorance of it, or at least a willingness to shove it aside to make room for your imaginary friend, every time you try to use it as a weapon against non-believers.

I'm sorry, but your beliefs are much too silly to take seriously. Got anything else we can discuss?
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03-08-2017, 12:59 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
Let's look at the order of events in genesis 1 and see if the day/age conjecture works...

The order of events of creation are:
1. heaven and the earth (although since the earth was "without form, and void" it doesn't make much sense, especially since there was a "deep" for darkness to be over even though it had no form...)
2. light. -- God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day (given the placement of the first "day" right after describing night and day and evening and morning it seems pretty plain that the "day" is the normal 24 hours)
3. a firmament dividing the waters above from the waters below (well, no, there's no "firmament" so this must have been an easy day)
4. dry land (well, no, the oceans accumulated after the earth formed so dry land came first)
5. grass, herbs, fruit trees
6. sun and moon (well, no, the sun and moon came about with the earth, not after grass, herbs, and trees that could not have lived without the sun)
7. sea creatures (specifically whales) and flying creatures (well, no, sea life came before grass, herbs, and trees)
8. land animals
9. man (male and female)

Even if you let the "day" be some other time period, ignoring the "evening and morning" that contradicts that, and you allow them to be different lengths of time which also contradicts the plain text, the order is simply wrong. It is Hebrew mythology and no more scientifically meaningful than any of the thousands of other creation stories around the globe.

Genesis 2 is a little better, mostly because it glosses over all the details abd doesn't make nearly so many claims. The order there is
1. heavens and earth
2. man
3. garden w/trees
4. and animals, flying creatures
5. woman
It's still wrong, there's just not as much of it to be wrong.

Basically, genesis can be matched up against science if you ignore the actual text and assume the same phrase means different things in different places and you re-arrange the events. You can do that with just about any creation story. Please don't go down the "as seen from the earth's surface" rabbit hole because that is not what the text says and the events are still wrong.

The point I keep coming back to is that you'd never come up with the correct order of events just from genesis -- you have to use science to set the framework and then pretend that genesis matches.

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03-08-2017, 01:30 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(02-08-2017 03:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(02-08-2017 01:46 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Well, hey there CD! Is your god an omniscient god? Just curious.

Hello. Yes, He is.

If your god is omniscient then he would know, even before he created the first atom, what would happen to the first Adam and everything that would follow. If he knows our future then our future is fixed then freewill is an illusion. He would know every choice, how we will behave, who we will worship or not worship. He would know who will end up in heaven and who will end up in hell. He would know all the events that would happen to Jesus (which is also himself and his own son at the same time) therefore the whole notion of the Jesus sacrifice is set up to happen pre creation times. Nothing will suprise an omniscient god.

Of course your god may not have omniscience which would mean that he is not all powerful. Or the other possibility is that he doesn't exist.

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03-08-2017, 05:08 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(03-08-2017 12:59 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Let's look at the order of events in genesis 1 and see if the day/age conjecture works...

The order of events of creation are:
1. heaven and the earth (although since the earth was "without form, and void" it doesn't make much sense, especially since there was a "deep" for darkness to be over even though it had no form...)
2. light. -- God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day (given the placement of the first "day" right after describing night and day and evening and morning it seems pretty plain that the "day" is the normal 24 hours)
3. a firmament dividing the waters above from the waters below (well, no, there's no "firmament" so this must have been an easy day)
4. dry land (well, no, the oceans accumulated after the earth formed so dry land came first)
5. grass, herbs, fruit trees
6. sun and moon (well, no, the sun and moon came about with the earth, not after grass, herbs, and trees that could not have lived without the sun)
7. sea creatures (specifically whales) and flying creatures (well, no, sea life came before grass, herbs, and trees)
8. land animals
9. man (male and female)

Even if you let the "day" be some other time period, ignoring the "evening and morning" that contradicts that, and you allow them to be different lengths of time which also contradicts the plain text, the order is simply wrong. It is Hebrew mythology and no more scientifically meaningful than any of the thousands of other creation stories around the globe.

Genesis 2 is a little better, mostly because it glosses over all the details abd doesn't make nearly so many claims. The order there is
1. heavens and earth
2. man
3. garden w/trees
4. and animals, flying creatures
5. woman
It's still wrong, there's just not as much of it to be wrong.

Basically, genesis can be matched up against science if you ignore the actual text and assume the same phrase means different things in different places and you re-arrange the events. You can do that with just about any creation story. Please don't go down the "as seen from the earth's surface" rabbit hole because that is not what the text says and the events are still wrong.

The point I keep coming back to is that you'd never come up with the correct order of events just from genesis -- you have to use science to set the framework and then pretend that genesis matches.

Genesis is such a fount of ignorance, the more you read it, the more it fails to be even close to scientifically valid.

The earth had water in total darkness- fail. Facepalm The sun was around long before Earth.

Water is possible before light is created - fail. Facepalm Think about the FUNDAMENTAL ignorance of physics in that statement.

In Genesis 1:5 the bible defines what is a day- "And the evening and the morning were the first day."

The day-age crap is total post-hoc nonsense. Genesis is talking about a typical day/24 hour period.

The "heaven" (singular) is talking about Yahoo's place, you know, harps and little angels with wings? It's not talking about galaxies, stars and nebulas.

And on it goes- CDF is post-hoc'ing his BS book to force it to fit science.

This crap is so old, just stop it. Facepalm

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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04-08-2017, 12:50 AM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2017 01:14 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
Why would God even need an order to create things in? It's more theatre. He could just will everything into existence, exactly how he wants it to be, instantly. The reason, of course, is that the account is supposed to be some sort of pseudo-explanation. And "bam, done" isn't so much of an interesting story.

Unless you demote God from his all-powerful all-knowing throne, everything he ever does is just him screwing around for the sake of it. You don't need goals or plans when there is nothing for you to overcome.

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04-08-2017, 01:17 AM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2017 01:46 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
That's in interesting question. Why are many believers so horrified at the idea of their boss being something less than maximally powerful? Is it because something else might come along and kick its arse?

Why would they be threatened by the imaginary Gods in all those "wrong" religions?

Edit: I suppose that historically, it is due to the transition from polytheism to monotheism.

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04-08-2017, 03:59 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(04-08-2017 01:17 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  That's in interesting question. Why are many believers so horrified at the idea of their boss being something less than maximally powerful? Is it because something else might come along and kick its arse?

Why would they be threatened by the imaginary Gods in all those "wrong" religions?

Edit: I suppose that historically, it is due to the transition from polytheism to monotheism.

Yeah, it's because "My God is bigger than your god!" They jumped right into all the absolute attributes without thinking through the contradictions.
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04-08-2017, 04:50 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(04-08-2017 12:50 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Why would God even need an order to create things in? It's more theatre. He could just will everything into existence, exactly how he wants it to be, instantly. The reason, of course, is that the account is supposed to be some sort of pseudo-explanation. And "bam, done" isn't so much of an interesting story.

Unless you demote God from his all-powerful all-knowing throne, everything he ever does is just him screwing around for the sake of it. You don't need goals or plans when there is nothing for you to overcome.

All of the omni-characteristics of this deity were shown to false in the first couple of chapters in Genesis.

God rested after creating for 7 days- not omnipotent.
God couldn't find Adam in the garden - neither omniscient or omnipresent
God forced punishment based on all humans, instead of the individuals -not omnibenevolent.

Christians have post-hoc'ed their version of god for over 1500 years when it's obvious their god isn't omni-anything.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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