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Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
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08-06-2016, 07:13 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
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09-06-2016, 05:17 AM (This post was last modified: 09-06-2016 05:22 AM by unfogged.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(08-06-2016 07:04 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  It is actually more specified and complex than this but these are some of the basic details. Again, random or designed?

Ignoring the incredibly loaded terminology and analogies...

"Designed" by the process of natural selection which is partially driven by random occurrences.

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09-06-2016, 05:41 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(08-06-2016 07:04 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Does this sound random or designed?

Extremely specified and complex 4-digit DNA code is copied and transported to an assembly line. The DNA instructions are read and individual amino acids are transported and placed on the assembly line in specific order as specified by the DNA code to form a chain of amino acids (some being around 200 characters long). The order of the different type of specified amino acids determine the type of protein, or in human design lingo, what type of component part, will be assembled on the assembly line. After the assembly is complete, another transport device (in human design lingo, a transport is like a bus or airplane), picks up the newly formed protein component part and delivers it precisely into a barrel part shaping machine to form the part so it may serve it's later intended function. After the part forming is complete, the barrel machine receives a stop command and opens the door. A transport device picks up the shaped protein part and then delivers it to the precise location instructed from the code to serve as part of a larger machine system in the cell. The protein component part fits exactly into place with other parts and the overall machine assembly process continues until the last part is installed. After all the different parts are installed into the machine, a start machine operation command is given as the machine then serves it's intended purpose for the cell.

It is actually more specified and complex than this but these are some of the basic details. Again, random or designed?

So when a flu virus mutates to render a vaccination useless on a yearly basis, is that god designing better bio-weapons to kill us?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

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09-06-2016, 06:29 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(08-06-2016 07:04 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Does this sound random or designed?

It sounds designed since it was specifically written to sound designed. Drinking Beverage

(08-06-2016 07:04 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  It is actually more specified and complex than this but these are some of the basic details. Again, random or designed?

Using science we can observe and study the processes you bastardized in your post.
Using science we do not see anything other than natural processes at work.

Using science, were is your god?

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09-06-2016, 09:33 AM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(08-06-2016 07:04 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Does this sound random or designed?

Extremely specified and complex 4-digit DNA code is copied and transported to an assembly line. The DNA instructions are read and individual amino acids are transported and placed on the assembly line in specific order as specified by the DNA code to form a chain of amino acids (some being around 200 characters long). The order of the different type of specified amino acids determine the type of protein, or in human design lingo, what type of component part, will be assembled on the assembly line. After the assembly is complete, another transport device (in human design lingo, a transport is like a bus or airplane), picks up the newly formed protein component part and delivers it precisely into a barrel part shaping machine to form the part so it may serve it's later intended function. After the part forming is complete, the barrel machine receives a stop command and opens the door. A transport device picks up the shaped protein part and then delivers it to the precise location instructed from the code to serve as part of a larger machine system in the cell. The protein component part fits exactly into place with other parts and the overall machine assembly process continues until the last part is installed. After all the different parts are installed into the machine, a start machine operation command is given as the machine then serves it's intended purpose for the cell.

It is actually more specified and complex than this but these are some of the basic details. Again, random or designed?

Neither. Your knowledge in this seems superficial. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-06-2016, 12:07 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
It doesn't matter what it sounds like, it matters what it is.

What it is is unlikely to be what your layman's "common sense" evaluation proclaims it to be, especially if you're bringing in presuppositions and magical notions into the evaluation. There simply is no demonstrated evidence of any magic occurring in nature, and we have found time and again that things we once thought to be magic (such as lightning and thunder, which turned out to have nothing to do with Zeus or Thor, etc.) actually have purely-natural causes.

In order to propose that something is "designed" (in the sense that you mean it), you would have to demonstrate some evidence that it is actually designed, rather than simply appearing (to you) to be designed, and a mechanism by which that magic would occur that comports to the observations about how genetic inheritance works. As was quite thoroughly pointed out in the Kitzmiller trial, while Michael Behe (the chief proponent of the Intelligent Design hypothesis) was being questioned under oath, the only way to advocate for ID as a legitimate field of science would be to broaden the definition of what constitutes science so much that astrology and tarot reading would fall under the same definition.

There is also a great deal of evidence against intelligent design which you would have to overcome, such as retroviral infection scars in the germline which are handed down to separate descendant species and have no other reason to be there besides common ancestry, vertebrate nerve cords which are a straight path in fish but which loop up the neck and down again when there is a much straighter path that a designer would have obviously chosen to bypass the blood vessel that it loops around (instead of the slow process of lengthening that cord from its original shape, with each new longer-necked generation, in order to keep it on the same side of the blood vessel as the ancestral species that developed it in the first place), and inefficiencies in the design that no engineer would ever tolerate (such as the narrowing of the birth canal in humans that came with shifting the feet and pelvic girdle to point "forward" as we developed bipedal locomotion before our brains got bigger and resulted in difficult childbirth compared to other species, or the fact that our spine/torso design is the same as quadrupeds which forces the spine to double-curve and have issues with slipped discs that are not shared by quadrupeds), and many more.

Nature is full of things that appear counter-intuitive to the layperson. That's why we have scientists, and why the Scientific Method is specifically designed to weed out human biases and presuppositions. I am sorry that it challenges your magical ideas about the way things work in the natural world, but the natural world doesn't care what you believe, and we only care what you can demonstrate, not suggest.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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09-06-2016, 02:30 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(09-06-2016 05:17 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 07:04 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  It is actually more specified and complex than this but these are some of the basic details. Again, random or designed?

Ignoring the incredibly loaded terminology and analogies...

"Designed" by the process of natural selection which is partially driven by random occurrences.

How so? Please explain details how that process works following natural selection.
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09-06-2016, 02:32 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(09-06-2016 05:41 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 07:04 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Does this sound random or designed?

Extremely specified and complex 4-digit DNA code is copied and transported to an assembly line. The DNA instructions are read and individual amino acids are transported and placed on the assembly line in specific order as specified by the DNA code to form a chain of amino acids (some being around 200 characters long). The order of the different type of specified amino acids determine the type of protein, or in human design lingo, what type of component part, will be assembled on the assembly line. After the assembly is complete, another transport device (in human design lingo, a transport is like a bus or airplane), picks up the newly formed protein component part and delivers it precisely into a barrel part shaping machine to form the part so it may serve it's later intended function. After the part forming is complete, the barrel machine receives a stop command and opens the door. A transport device picks up the shaped protein part and then delivers it to the precise location instructed from the code to serve as part of a larger machine system in the cell. The protein component part fits exactly into place with other parts and the overall machine assembly process continues until the last part is installed. After all the different parts are installed into the machine, a start machine operation command is given as the machine then serves it's intended purpose for the cell.

It is actually more specified and complex than this but these are some of the basic details. Again, random or designed?

So when a flu virus mutates to render a vaccination useless on a yearly basis, is that god designing better bio-weapons to kill us?

Did you know that a virus is malicious code that attacks cells. All part of the design. Perfection in this life was obviously not the intent of the Designer.
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09-06-2016, 02:33 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(09-06-2016 06:29 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 07:04 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Does this sound random or designed?

It sounds designed since it was specifically written to sound designed. Drinking Beverage

(08-06-2016 07:04 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  It is actually more specified and complex than this but these are some of the basic details. Again, random or designed?

Using science we can observe and study the processes you bastardized in your post.
Using science we do not see anything other than natural processes at work.

Using science, were is your god?

I always been a fan of science as well. I hold a degree in a field of applied science.

In science, He is everywhere.
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09-06-2016, 02:38 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(09-06-2016 12:07 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  It doesn't matter what it sounds like, it matters what it is.

What it is is unlikely to be what your layman's "common sense" evaluation proclaims it to be, especially if you're bringing in presuppositions and magical notions into the evaluation. There simply is no demonstrated evidence of any magic occurring in nature, and we have found time and again that things we once thought to be magic (such as lightning and thunder, which turned out to have nothing to do with Zeus or Thor, etc.) actually have purely-natural causes.

In order to propose that something is "designed" (in the sense that you mean it), you would have to demonstrate some evidence that it is actually designed, rather than simply appearing (to you) to be designed, and a mechanism by which that magic would occur that comports to the observations about how genetic inheritance works. As was quite thoroughly pointed out in the Kitzmiller trial, while Michael Behe (the chief proponent of the Intelligent Design hypothesis) was being questioned under oath, the only way to advocate for ID as a legitimate field of science would be to broaden the definition of what constitutes science so much that astrology and tarot reading would fall under the same definition.

There is also a great deal of evidence against intelligent design which you would have to overcome, such as retroviral infection scars in the germline which are handed down to separate descendant species and have no other reason to be there besides common ancestry, vertebrate nerve cords which are a straight path in fish but which loop up the neck and down again when there is a much straighter path that a designer would have obviously chosen to bypass the blood vessel that it loops around (instead of the slow process of lengthening that cord from its original shape, with each new longer-necked generation, in order to keep it on the same side of the blood vessel as the ancestral species that developed it in the first place), and inefficiencies in the design that no engineer would ever tolerate (such as the narrowing of the birth canal in humans that came with shifting the feet and pelvic girdle to point "forward" as we developed bipedal locomotion before our brains got bigger and resulted in difficult childbirth compared to other species, or the fact that our spine/torso design is the same as quadrupeds which forces the spine to double-curve and have issues with slipped discs that are not shared by quadrupeds), and many more.

Nature is full of things that appear counter-intuitive to the layperson. That's why we have scientists, and why the Scientific Method is specifically designed to weed out human biases and presuppositions. I am sorry that it challenges your magical ideas about the way things work in the natural world, but the natural world doesn't care what you believe, and we only care what you can demonstrate, not suggest.

Many of those items you listed as design deficiencies or inefficiencies could simply be design trade-offs. For instance, the human eye is lacking in some aspects so that it may be optimized in others. Design trade-off is typical in all system design.

Again, there are only two options, design or random. That's it. Does DNA to cell operation process appear random or designed? Choose one or the other which appears most likely to you and give a true well thought honest response.
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