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Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
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09-06-2016, 02:48 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(09-06-2016 02:38 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Many of those items you listed as design deficiencies or inefficiencies could simply be design trade-offs. For instance, the human eye is lacking in some aspects so that it may be optimized in others. Design trade-off is typical in all system design.

There is no design trade-off for the human eye being wired backwards.

Quote:Again, there are only two options, design or random. That's it. Does DNA to cell operation process appear random or designed? Choose one or the other which appears most likely to you and give a true well thought honest response.

False dichotomy due to your lack of understanding of evolution.

Natural selection is neither random nor purposeful. Read a book. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-06-2016, 03:18 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(09-06-2016 02:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(09-06-2016 05:41 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  So when a flu virus mutates to render a vaccination useless on a yearly basis, is that god designing better bio-weapons to kill us?

Did you know that a virus is malicious code that attacks cells. All part of the design. Perfection in this life was obviously not the intent of the Designer.

And how would you know anything about intent?

Again, you make an absolutely baseless claim with no evidence.

The obvious explanation is a natural, mindless process of adaptation.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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09-06-2016, 03:22 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(09-06-2016 02:33 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(09-06-2016 06:29 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  It sounds designed since it was specifically written to sound designed. Drinking Beverage


Using science we can observe and study the processes you bastardized in your post.
Using science we do not see anything other than natural processes at work.

Using science, were is your god?

I always been a fan of science as well. I hold a degree in a field of applied science.

In science, He is everywhere.
Bullshit, hope your burger flipping skills are good, you can't see two inches past your biases.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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09-06-2016, 04:18 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(09-06-2016 02:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  
(09-06-2016 05:41 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  So when a flu virus mutates to render a vaccination useless on a yearly basis, is that god designing better bio-weapons to kill us?

Did you know that a virus is malicious code that attacks cells. All part of the design. Perfection in this life was obviously not the intent of the Designer.

And since you're the "expert" on this alleged god's intent, people are just dying to know, when god is continually modifying viruses and bacteria to get around vaccinations that we create, what exactly is his intent?

People are literally dying to know!

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09-06-2016, 05:07 PM (This post was last modified: 09-06-2016 05:53 PM by unfogged.)
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(09-06-2016 02:30 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  How so? Please explain details how that process works following natural selection.

We'll start slow since that appears to be all that you can take
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_25

(09-06-2016 02:33 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  I always been a fan of science as well. I hold a degree in a field of applied science.

"a field of applied science"?
Laugh out load

Quote:In science, He is everywhere.

Only when viewed with presuppositions and a willingness to ignore and distort evidence.

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09-06-2016, 05:39 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(09-06-2016 02:38 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Many of those items you listed as design deficiencies or inefficiencies could simply be design trade-offs. For instance, the human eye is lacking in some aspects so that it may be optimized in others. Design trade-off is typical in all system design.

Again, there are only two options, design or random. That's it. Does DNA to cell operation process appear random or designed? Choose one or the other which appears most likely to you and give a true well thought honest response.

Almost everything is a trade-off, in biology. In the case of the spine, for instance, the trade off was that a quadruped ancestor needed to be able to support its weight vertically, so we eventually developed the double-curved spine, with its inherent disc problems. It was not "made from scratch" to be a biped's spine. This is evidence against the hypothesis of a Designer.

And you are wrong about there being only two options. You're employing a logical fallacy called the "false dichotomy". Many things in nature are "designed" by a lack of intelligence-- the streamlining of rocks that are at the bottom of a riverbed. Yes, they're all different from normal rocks, and they're all of similar shape... but we know the forces that "design" them that way are not magical.

As for the DNA element, it does not appear to me in the least bit to be designed, in the manner you indicate/imply. It is full of visible errors and deletions, such as the pseudogene for ascorbic acid, resulting in Hypoascorbemia, an inability to produce Vitamin C naturally, which results from a small deletion even though the rest of the gene is there, as it is--but intact--in other mammals with the exception of the Great Apes, including us, for instance.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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09-06-2016, 06:01 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(09-06-2016 02:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-06-2016 02:38 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Many of those items you listed as design deficiencies or inefficiencies could simply be design trade-offs. For instance, the human eye is lacking in some aspects so that it may be optimized in others. Design trade-off is typical in all system design.

There is no design trade-off for the human eye being wired backwards.

Quote:Again, there are only two options, design or random. That's it. Does DNA to cell operation process appear random or designed? Choose one or the other which appears most likely to you and give a true well thought honest response.

False dichotomy due to your lack of understanding of evolution.

Natural selection is neither random nor purposeful. Read a book. Drinking Beverage

I agree there is some evolution as part of the implementation of the design. There is definitely some change over time and mutation, many times which improves the system operations. Order becoming more orderly that is (which in a sense flies in the face of thermodynamics).

Natural selection never explained origins. Even Darwin said if life is more complex than a glob of plasm, which is all they could see of a cell microscopically at the time in the mid-18th century, then his theory would fall apart. Around 100 years later, in 1953, DNA was discovered and years and decades following breakthroughs in the understanding of this immense genetic information were made. DNA is specified and complex beyond imagination.
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09-06-2016, 06:10 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(09-06-2016 06:01 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Order becoming more orderly that is (which in a sense flies in the face of thermodynamics).

So you don't understand thermodynamics either.

Quote:Natural selection never explained origins.

Natural selection doesn't address abiogenesis but it isn't intended to. It addresses how existent life evolves.

Quote:Even Darwin said if life is more complex than a glob of plasm, which is all they could see of a cell microscopically at the time in the mid-18th century, then his theory would fall apart.

Even if he did say that, we've come a long way since Darwin.

Quote:Around 100 years later, in 1953, DNA was discovered and years and decades following breakthroughs in the understanding of this immense genetic information were made.

Which means that the fact that Darwin didn't know about DNA and couldn't imagine it is irrelevant. He did not develop a complete theory of evolution, he provided a solid framework on which much has been built as scientists learned more of the details.

Quote:DNA is specified and complex beyond imagination.

What exactly is being specified and by whom? That seems to be nothing more than a buzzword thrown about by creationists that doesn't really mean anything.

Also, you apparently have a poor imagination.

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09-06-2016, 06:10 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(09-06-2016 03:18 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(09-06-2016 02:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Did you know that a virus is malicious code that attacks cells. All part of the design. Perfection in this life was obviously not the intent of the Designer.

And how would you know anything about intent?

Again, you make an absolutely baseless claim with no evidence.

The obvious explanation is a natural, mindless process of adaptation.

I understand intent through simple observation. Living systems are born imperfect and die.

DNA is an extremely highly specified and complex code which provides the instructions for a nano-manufacturing plant to build proteins for living cells. Proteins have a wide range of function in the cell, such as building components of the cell to harvesting energy.

There are complex molecular machines that are commonly irreducibly complex, meaning if one part is removed or damaged in the system then the system is either degraded or fails to function. This is similar to human designed systems. For instance, if the door falls of your car, you car is degraded but continues to function. Alternatively, if the motor in your car blows up, the system fails. Living systems are similar in that if certain components fail to function there is only degradation and if others fail, the system fails but the components all serve a specific function. Some of these nano-machines in living systems come complete with motors, propellers, drive shafts, u-joints, and the like.

These machines in the cells of living systems are built part by part in a nano-manufacturing plant using the code inside the DNA molecule. There are codes instructing the machine to start assembling parts in specific orders and instructing when to stop the assembly. There are spell checker type enzymes searching and correcting errors in the code, there is copying and transporting of the code. DNA has nested coding. DNA has a files within folders hierarchical structure. A senior software engineer with Microsoft once said DNA follows design strategies similar to those used by their software programmers but one far more advanced than they have been able to devise.

The specific genetic instructions to build a protein in even the simplest one celled organism would fill hundreds of pages of printed text.

Approximately 3 percent of DNA encodes protein sequences and the other 97 percent is noncoding DNA. Noncoding DNA transcribes into functional noncoding RNA molecules (like transfer RNA, ribosomal RNA, and regulator RNAs). Other functions of noncoding DNA include transcriptional and translational regulation of protein-coding sequences, scaffold attachment regions, origins of DNA replication, centormeters and telomeres. This is no longer referred to as "junk DNA." That was an old term. The noncoding DNA is more like the operating system.

DNA proves the design of living systems. The fine-tuning of the universe proves the design of the universe.

Watch the 3 minute and 34 second video below on how DNA works if you are interested (there is a real good and easy to understand computer generated model showing how DNA works in this short video):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVkdQhNdzHU

Another longer video is below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzj8iXiVDT8

Regarding the fine tuning of the universe, there are approximately 20 constants of the universe which are fine-tuned, such that if these mathematical figures were off by the most smallest fraction of a percent, life as we know it would not exist. The most finely tuned figure is the cosmological constant (energy density of the vacuum of space) which is fine tuned to an order of magnitude of 1:10^120. If that figure was off by that small a value, there would be no life. To give you an idea of the size of that number, there are approximately 10^80 elementary particles in the known universe and there have been 10^16 seconds since the creation of the universe in the Big Bang approximately 13.8 billion years ago. By the way, back to DNA, the probability of building a short functional protein from amino acids is 1 X 10^164. Just amazing!
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09-06-2016, 06:18 PM
RE: Belief vs Facts in the programed religious mind.
(09-06-2016 04:18 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(09-06-2016 02:32 PM)CDF47 Wrote:  Did you know that a virus is malicious code that attacks cells. All part of the design. Perfection in this life was obviously not the intent of the Designer.

And since you're the "expert" on this alleged god's intent, people are just dying to know, when god is continually modifying viruses and bacteria to get around vaccinations that we create, what exactly is his intent?

People are literally dying to know!

[Image: resized_jesus-says-meme-generator-there-...c8d40c.jpg]

We were speaking science but I don't mind delving into theology.

DNA proves the design of living systems and the extreme fine-tuning of the universe proves the design of the universe.

Science reaches a plateau at this point and it becomes necessary to step into theology to search for answers. There is only one source which prophesizes (foretells) thousands of years of this world's history, with astounding precision, written in an encoded symbolic language; and that source is the Bible.

According to this Source, it is sin and disobedience which caused the fall of man. Death is the punishment for sin.

We should focus back on the science though. I have seen this side tracking tactic used many times during debate of this topic. Can't argue the facts so try to divert to attacking the creation or Creator.
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