Believe and now before it's too late.(With Science and Archaeology evidence for God)
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18-09-2015, 09:19 PM (This post was last modified: 18-09-2015 09:26 PM by dancefortwo.)
RE: Believe and now before it's too late.(With Science and Archaeology evidence for God)
(18-09-2015 05:39 AM)Hesso Wrote:  To:Peebothuhul

Quote:Why?

What is there to repent' about?

And, this nobility should impress me, why?

Why repent is the same as saying,saved from what?
People might tell you that you need to be saved. But do you feel like you’re only getting half the story?
Are you like me? I get tired of sitting down in the middle of something like a story, show, etc. and wondering what’s going on. I think most people feel like this when they hear about Jesus for the first time. In my past, I would hear things like:

[quote]“Good news! Good news! Here’s how to get saved: Believe in Jesus!!”
I was thinking, “Saved from what? Jesus who?” Obviously, there was something missing in the approach that these well meaning Christians used with me, and it is important, then, to learn to be better witnesses.

Perfect Creation . . . Then the Bad News
First of all, it’s tough to understand the good news of being saved if you don’t understand the bad news. So let’s go back to the beginning. In the beginning, God created everything:

Quote:Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.1
When God created everything He said it was “very good.” This meant that everything was perfect. The whole creation was perfect. In fact, God says that all His works are perfect, and we would expect that from a perfect God. Man lived in the perfectly created earth (i.e., a paradise) with a perfect relationship with God.

Quote:Genesis 1:31
God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
Being that the original creation was perfect, there was no death before this (Genesis 1:29–30).2 God gave man and woman the freedom of contrary choice.3 The first two people God created were Adam and Eve, who were allowed to freely eat from any tree in the Garden of Eden except the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. They were to live forever with God. Again, there was no death. However, Eve was tempted by a serpent (being influenced by Satan, who had rebelled against God in the heavenly realm), and then both Adam and Eve also rebelled against God by eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil; thus, they sinned (sin is rebellion against God4).

Quote:Genesis 2:16–17
And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.”
Genesis 3:1–6
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
“You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
The result of Adam’s sin (rebellion against a Holy Creator) was God’s judgment through many curses. God cursed the ground, which mankind had dominion over (Genesis 1:28), to bring forth thorns and thistles. He sentenced man and woman to die, fulfilling what was spoken in Genesis 2:17. He also cursed the animals and, especially, the serpent.

From this act of rebellion, we (i.e., humans, descendants of Adam) inherit “original sin.” This, in a layman’s sense, means that we are sentenced to die and are prone to sin because we were in Adam when he sinned.5 In essence, these curses are like God removing some of His sustaining power, so the creation is no longer upheld in a perfect state, but in bondage to sin and death (Romans 8:21)—hence, we now suffer things like cancer, sickness, suffering, and finally, death.

Quote:Genesis 3:14–19
So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”
To the woman he said, “I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”
To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned . . .
.
In spite of our sin, God loved us so much that He had already planned a way for us to return to a perfect relationship with Him. To provide forgiveness and salvation, God gave the first prophecy of many regarding the way back to a restored relationship with Him. Genesis 3:15 says that the seed will be that of a woman.6 This refers to the future event—the virgin birth of Jesus—being the “seed of a woman” and not of a man.

Death and Sacrifice Point Toward a Savior
In the New Testament, Paul confirms what is written in Genesis 2:17 when he says that the wages of sin is death. One sin is enough to cause death!

Quote:Romans 6:23a
For the wages of sin is death
Since the wages of sin is death, God, in Genesis 3, shows that a life must be taken to cover the sin of Adam and Eve. Therefore, to make a temporary atonement (cover the sins for a time), God killed these animals on behalf of Adam and Eve clothing them with the skins.

Quote:Genesis 3:21
The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.
The punishment demanded from an infinitely holy God, who cannot look upon sin, is an infinite punishment. Animals are not infinite, and so, they cannot ultimately take away the sin, but merely cover it. Mankind needed a perfect, infinitely holy sacrifice. Jesus Christ, who is the infinite and holy Son of God, stepped into history to take that punishment on Himself. We ultimately need a perfect sacrifice, and the perfectly obedient life of Christ was God’s plan for the ultimate atonement.

But after Adam and Eve sinned, people began making animal sacrifices to cover their sins—an animal life for sin. A few examples follow.

Quote:Abel
Genesis 4:4
But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering
Noah
Genesis 8:20
Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
Abraham
Genesis 22:13
Then Abraham lifted his eyes and looked, and there behind him was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son.
Israelites
Leviticus 1:3
“‘If the offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he is to offer a male without defect. He must present it at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting so that he will be acceptable to the LORD.’”
The Law of Moses (i.e., Genesis–Deuteronomy) revealed sin as rebellion against God. The moral laws are summarized in the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20; Deuteronomy 5). Even with the Law, people continued rebelling and turning away from God (Romans 3:20). But God sent the ultimate and final sacrifice—far greater than any animal sacrifice—that would be sufficient to cover sin against a perfect God (Hebrews 10:1–14).

Jesus Christ, the Savior, Steps into History
Quote:John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
God sent His Son (i.e., the second person of the Triune God7), Jesus, to humble Himself and enter into a sin-cursed world to live a servant’s life on earth just like one of us (Philippians 2:8). He entered the world just as was prophesied—through the virgin Mary.

Jesus was without sin (1 John 3:5) and did everything perfectly according to the Law. Then, He would allow mankind to sacrifice Him on the cross. Jesus would be the final sacrifice because he obeyed God completely and was without defect—only He could satisfy the infinite punishment we deserve. His method of sacrifice (crucifixion) was even outlined many years before in Psalm 22. He was the perfect sacrifice (far exceeding the most perfect, unblemished animal) because He was the perfect man and also perfect God (Colossians 2:9).

Quote:Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”
When God stepped into His creation, He offered what is called “grace.” Grace means that we were to be rightly punished for our wrongdoings, and then the one who sentenced us to that punishment took the punishment upon Himself because of love for us. We rightly deserved death by God’s judgment. But God took that punishment upon Himself by dying in our place as Jesus Christ. He exercised that grace because of His love for us.

Jesus didn’t come to the world to sentence it to death—the world was already condemned by sin. He came to save us from that sin. This indicates that God really is a God of love.





Do you realize that quoting from the Bible is meaningless drivel? It is proof of nothing. It was written by men who had no understanding of how the world around them worked. These were men who thought bats were birds, who thought rabbits chewed their cuds and various other mistaken notions.

Humans are the only animal that has foreknowledge of their own death and because humans know they will die, this fear has driven them to devise all kinds of books with wishful thinking heavens and gods of one sort or another, with rules and regulations they need to follow so that they will be kept alive after their dead.


There is zero proof of any of these heavens, zero proof of gods, zero proof of any of your imaginary, clap trap ideas. Writing in old books about deities on sheets of papyrus is proof of nothing. So you can quote hundreds, nay, thousands of lines from whatever book you think is proof but it's only proof is that people feared death to the point of creating these books.

In short, theists are actually a bunch of cowards with enormous egos who need to get over themselves.

Double post.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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18-09-2015, 09:21 PM
RE: Believe and now before it's too late.(With Science and Archaeology evidence for God)
Do you realize that quoting from the Bible is meaningless drivel? It is proof of nothing. It was written by men who had no understanding of how the world around them worked. These were men who thought bats were birds, who thought rabbits chewed their cuds and various other mistaken notions.

Humans are the only animal that has foreknowledge of their own death and because humans know they will die, this fear has driven them to devise all kinds of books with wishful thinking heavens and gods of one sort or another, with rules and regulations they need to follow so that they will be kept alive after their dead.


There is zero proof of any of these heavens, zero proof of gods, zero proof of any of your imaginary, clap trap ideas. Writing in old books about deities on sheets of papyrus is proof of nothing. So you can quote hundreds, nay, thousands of lines from whatever book you think is proof but it's only proof is that people feared death to the point of creating these books.

In short, theists are actually a bunch of cowards with enormous egos who need to get over themselves.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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18-09-2015, 10:20 PM
RE: Believe and now before it's too late.(With Science and Archaeology evidence for God)
I'm just gonna sit over here and snicker while you argue with a banned person. Tongue

living word
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18-09-2015, 10:57 PM
RE: Believe and now before it's too late.(With Science and Archaeology evidence for God)
(18-09-2015 10:20 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I'm just gonna sit over here and snicker while you argue with a banned person. Tongue

Yeah, well....shit......he/she quoted half the fuckin Bible thinking it actually means something and she/he is probably lurking, reading everything we write about her/him/it.

Hey Hessa, or whateverthehell your forum name is/was..... up yours with a giggystick!

Tongue

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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19-09-2015, 06:33 AM
RE: Believe and now before it's too late.(With Science and Archaeology evidence for God)
(18-09-2015 05:54 AM)Hesso Wrote:  To:ghostexorcist

Your laughing now,but at the end of the day you will be grinding your teeth in hell.You will not get a second chance after you die.so now is the time to believe in God and to do his will.As fallen, sinful human beings, the nature of God is a difficult concept for us to grasp. We tend to see God as a kind, merciful Being whose love for us overrides and overshadows all His other attributes. Of course God is loving, kind, and merciful, but He is first and foremost a holy and righteous God. So holy is He that He cannot tolerate sin. He is a God whose anger burns against the wicked and disobedient (Isaiah 5:25; Hosea 8:5; Zechariah 10:3). He is not only a loving God—He is love itself! But the Bible also tells us that He hates all manner of sin (Proverbs 6:16-19). And while He is merciful, there are limits to His mercy. “Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon” (Isaiah 55:6-7).

Humanity is corrupted by sin, and that sin is always directly against God. When David sinned by committing adultery with Bathsheba and having Uriah murdered, he responded with an interesting prayer: “Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight…” (Psalm 51:4). Since David had sinned against Bathsheba and Uriah, how could he claim to have only sinned against God? David understood that all sin is ultimately against God. God is an eternal and infinite Being (Psalm 90:2). As a result, all sin requires an eternal punishment. God’s holy, perfect, and infinite character has been offended by our sin. Although to our finite minds our sin is limited in time, to God—who is outside of time—the sin He hates goes on and on. Our sin is eternally before Him and must be eternally punished in order to satisfy His holy justice.

No one understands this better than someone in hell. A perfect example is the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Both died, and the rich man went to hell while Lazarus went to paradise (Luke 16). Of course, the rich man was aware that his sins were only committed during his lifetime. But, interestingly, he never says, “How did I end up here?” That question is never asked in hell. He does not say, “Did I really deserve this? Don't you think this is a little extreme? A little over the top?” He only asks that someone go to his brothers who are still alive and warn them against his fate.

Like the rich man, every sinner in hell has a full realization that he deserves to be there. Each sinner has a fully informed, acutely aware, and sensitive conscience which, in hell, becomes his own tormenter. This is the experience of torture in hell—a person fully aware of his or her sin with a relentlessly accusing conscience, without relief for even one moment. The guilt of sin will produce shame and everlasting self-hatred. The rich man knew that eternal punishment for a lifetime of sins is justified and deserved. That is why he never protested or questioned being in hell.

The realities of eternal damnation, eternal hell, and eternal punishment are frightening and disturbing. But it is good that we might, indeed, be terrified. While this may sound grim, there is good news. God loves us (John 3:16) and wants us to be saved from hell (2 Peter 3:9). But because God is also just and righteous, He cannot allow our sin to go unpunished. Someone has to pay for it. In His great mercy and love, God provided His own payment for our sin. He sent His Son Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for our sins by dying on the cross for us. Jesus’ death was an infinite death because He is the infinite God/man, paying our infinite sin debt, so that we would not have to pay it in hell for eternity (2 Corinthians 5:21). If we confess our sin and place our faith in Christ, asking for God’s forgiveness based on Christ’s sacrifice, we are saved, forgiven, cleansed, and promised an eternal home in heaven. God loved us so much that He provided the means for our salvation, but if we reject His gift of eternal life, we will face the eternal consequences of that decision.

You are adorable. Does your mommy and daddy know that you are on the internet?
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19-09-2015, 02:36 PM
RE: Believe and now before it's too late.(With Science and Archaeology evidence for God)
(17-09-2015 06:23 PM)Banjo Wrote:  When the missionaries first invaded China, you know what the Chinese said? "If this message is so important, why did this god take so long to inform the Chinese?"

Reminds me of the missionary who went to the Amazon jungle to convert a naturally atheistic tribe called the Pirahã. He left the jungle as an atheist.

"After Pirahã tribe had listened to the missionary Daniel Everett, the only questions they asked were “was he brown like us, or white like you”? “Did you see him? Did your father see him?” According to Pirahã , if you or at least people close to you haven’t experienced it, it is simply not relevant. Pirahã does not have any concepts of a supreme entity or God and they lost interest in Daniel’s stories as soon as they discovered that he had no empirical verification for Jesus. They require evidence on personal experience (Xibipíío). Otherwise they dismiss it as irrelevant."

Don't Sleep, There are Snakes.

#sigh
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19-09-2015, 02:49 PM
RE: Believe and now before it's too late.(With Science and Archaeology evidence for God)
(17-09-2015 09:24 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(17-09-2015 09:11 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  You're still dwelling on this hours later? Its time to just move on.

Quote:I have forgiven 113 unprovoked insults directed at me in this forum.

He's an unrepentent sanctimonious hypocritical asshole.

(16-09-2015 05:20 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(15-09-2015 11:46 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  We don't need two threads about me......or 3 threads about me if you count the one Banjo started because he was questioning his atheism.

How did you even see my post? I thought I was on your ignore list. No? ... I forgive you for lying about ignoring me. Please go back to ignoring me. It's far more fun for me.

#sigh
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19-09-2015, 02:52 PM
RE: Believe and now before it's too late.(With Science and Archaeology evidence for God)
(18-09-2015 02:25 AM)morondog Wrote:  Blowjob found a friend Rolleyes

Annnnd ... now he doesn't.

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19-09-2015, 09:56 PM
RE: Believe and now before it's too late.(With Science and Archaeology evidence for God)
(18-09-2015 05:45 AM)Hesso Wrote:  To:Peebothuhul

And to add to that,There are few more confusing topics than salvation. It goes beyond the standard question posed by Fundamentalists: "Have you been saved?" What the question also means is: "Don’t you wish you had the assurance of salvation?" Evangelicals and Fundamentalists think they do have such an absolute assurance.

All they have to do is "accept Christ as their personal Savior," and it’s done. They might well live exemplary lives thereafter, but living well is not crucial and definitely does not affect their salvation.

Kenneth E. Hagin, a well-known Pentecostal televangelist from the "Word Faith" wing of Protestantism, asserts that this assurance of salvation comes through being "born again": "Unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). Though much of Hagin’s theology is considered bizarre in Protestant circles, his explanation of being born again could be endorsed by millions of Evangelical Protestants. In his booklet, The New Birth, Hagin writes, "The new birth is a necessity to being saved. Through the new birth you come into the right relationship with God."

According to Hagin, there are many things that this new birth is not. "The new birth is not: confirmation, church membership, water baptism, the taking of sacraments, observing religious duties, an intellectual reception of Christianity, orthodoxy of faith, going to church, saying prayers, reading the Bible, being moral, being cultured or refined, doing good deeds, doing your best, nor any of the many other things some men are trusting in to save them." Those who have obtained the new birth "did the one thing necessary: they accepted Jesus Christ as personal Savior by repenting and turning to God with the whole heart as a little child." That one act of the will, he explains, is all they needed to do. But is this true? Does the Bible support this concept?

Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.

For many Fundamentalists and Evangelicals it makes no difference—as far as salvation is concerned—how you live or end your life. You can heed the altar call at church, announce that you’ve accepted Jesus as your personal Savior, and, so long as you really believe it, you’re set. From that point on there is nothing you can do, no sin you can commit, no matter how heinous, that will forfeit your salvation. You can’t undo your salvation, even if you wanted to.

Does this sound too good to be true? Yes, but nevertheless, it is something many Protestants claim. Take a look at what Wilson Ewin, the author of a booklet called There is Therefore Now No Condemnation, says. He writes that "the person who places his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and his blood shed at Calvary is eternally secure. He can never lose his salvation. No personal breaking of God’s or man’s laws or commandments can nullify that status."

"To deny the assurance of salvation would be to deny Christ’s perfect redemption," argues Ewin, and this is something he can say only because he confuses the redemption that Christ accomplished for us objectively with our individual appropriation of that redemption. The truth is that in one sense we are all redeemed by Christ’s death on the cross—Christians, Jews, Muslims, even animists in the darkest forests (1 Tim. 2:6, 4:10, 1 John 2:2)—but our individual appropriation of what Christ provided is contingent on our response.

Certainly, Christ did die on the cross once for all and has entered into the holy place in heaven to appear before God on our behalf. Christ has abundantly provided for our salvation, but that does not mean that there is no process by which this is applied to us as individuals. Obviously, there is, or we would have been saved and justified from all eternity, with no need to repent or have faith or anything else. We would have been born "saved," with no need to be born again. Since we were not, since it is necessary for those who hear the gospel to repent and embrace it, there is a time at which we come to be reconciled to God. And if so, then we, like Adam and Eve, can become unreconciled with God and, like the prodigal son, need to come back and be reconciled again with God, after having left his family.

You Can’t Lose Heaven?

Ewin says that "no wrong act or sinful deed can ever affect the believer’s salvation. The sinner did nothing to merit God’s grace and likewise he can do nothing to demerit grace. True, sinful conduct always lessens one’s fellowship with Christ, limits his contribution to God’s work and can result in serious disciplinary action by the Holy Spirit."

One problem with this argument is that this is not even how things work in everyday life. If another person gives us something as a grace—as a gift—and even if we did nothing to deserve it (though frequently gifts are given based on our having pleased the one bestowing the gift), it in no way follows that our actions are irrelevant to whether or not we keep the gift. We can lose it in all kinds of ways. We can misplace it, destroy it, give it to someone else, take it back to the store. We may even forfeit something we were given by later displeasing the one who gave it—as when a person has been appointed to a special position but is later stripped of that position on account of mismanagement.

The argument fares no better when one turns to Scripture, for one finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well (cf. also Rom. 11:17-24). While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—either in the everyday world or in the Bible.

Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an "absolute" assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

Can You Know?

Related to the issue of whether one can lose one’s salvation is the question of whether one can know with complete certainty that one is in a state of salvation. Even if one could not lose one’s salvation, one still might not be sure whether one ever had salvation. Similarly, even if one could be sure that one is now in a state of salvation, one might be able to fall from grace in the future. The "knowability" of salvation is a different question than the "loseability" of salvation.

From the Radio Bible Class listeners can obtain a booklet called Can Anyone Really Know for Sure? The anonymous author says the "Lord Jesus wanted his followers to be so sure of their salvation that they would rejoice more in the expectation of heaven than in victories on earth. ‘These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God (1 John 5:13).’"

Places where Scripture speaks of our ability to know that we are abiding in grace are important and must be taken seriously. But they do not promise that we will be protected from self-deception on this matter. Even the author of Can Anyone Really Know for Sure? admits that there is a false assurance: "The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21)."

Sometimes Fundamentalists portray Catholics as if they must every moment be in terror of losing their salvation since Catholics recognize that it is possible to lose salvation through mortal sin. Fundamentalists then hold out the idea that, rather than living every moment in terror, they can have a calm, assured knowledge that they will, in fact, be saved, and that nothing will ever be able to change this fact.

But this portrayal is in error. Catholics do not live lives of mortal terror concerning salvation. True, salvation can be lost through mortal sin, but such sins are by nature grave ones, and not the kind that a person living the Christian life is going to slip into committing on the spur of the moment, without deliberate thought and consent. Neither does the Catholic Church teach that one cannot have an assurance of salvation. This is true both of present and future salvation.

One can be confident of one’s present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace. And one can be confident that one has not thrown away that grace by simply examining one’s life and seeing whether one has committed mortal sin. Indeed, the tests that John sets forth in his first epistle to help us know whether we are abiding in grace are, in essence, tests of whether we are dwelling in grave sin. For example, "By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother" (1 John 3:10), "If any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen" (1 John 4:20), "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome" (1 John 5:3).

Likewise, by looking at the course of one’s life in grace and the resolution of one’s heart to keep following God, one can also have an assurance of future salvation. It is this Paul speaks of when he writes to the Philippians and says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). This is not a promise for all Christians, or even necessarily all in the church at Philippi, but it is a confidence that the Philippian Christians in general would make it. The basis of this is their spiritual performance to date, and Paul feels a need to explain to them that there is a basis for his confidence in them. Thus he says, immediately, "It is right for me to feel thus about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel" (1:7). The fact that the Philippians performed spiritually by assisting Paul in his imprisonment and ministry showed that their hearts were with God and that it could be expected that they, at least in general, would persevere and remain with God.

There are many saintly men and women who have long lived the Christian life and whose characters are marked with profound spiritual joy and peace. Such individuals can look forward with confidence to their reception in heaven.

Such an individual was Paul, writing at the end of his life, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day" (2 Tim. 4:7-8). But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., dedikaiomai]. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27). Of course, for a spiritual giant such as Paul, it would be quite unexpected and out of character for him to fall from God’s grace. Nevertheless, he points out that, however much confidence in his own salvation he may be warranted in feeling, even he cannot be infallibly sure either of his own present state or of his future course.

The same is true of us. We can, if our lives display a pattern of perseverance and spiritual fruit, have not only a confidence in our present state of grace but also of our future perseverance with God. Yet we cannot have an infallible certitude of our own salvation, as many Protestants will admit. There is the possibility of self-deception (cf. Matt. 7:22-23). As Jeremiah expressed it, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9). There is also the possibility of falling from grace through mortal sin, and even of falling away from the faith entirely, for as Jesus told us, there are those who "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13). It is in the light of these warnings and admonitions that we must understand Scripture’s positive statements concerning our ability to know and have confidence in our salvation. Assurance we may have; infallible certitude we may not.

For example, Philippians 2:12 says, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.

What To Say

"Are you saved?" asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: "As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

Thanks for repeating ad nauseam the party bullshit line that you memorized at Sunday School. It's all a bunch of crap.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid160188

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-09-2015, 10:49 PM
RE: Believe and now before it's too late.(With Science and Archaeology evidence for God)
DANCEFORTWO:
First of all, it’s tough to understand the good news of being saved if you don’t understand the bad news.
ALLA:
what bad news? there was no any bad news

DANCEFORTWO:
So let’s go back to the beginning. In the beginning, God created everything:
According to the book of Genesis it is not true statement. God didn't create everything. He only created heaven and earth. That's all.

DANCEFORTWO:
When God created everything He said it was “very good.” This meant that everything was perfect. The whole creation was perfect. In fact, God says that all His works are perfect, and we would expect that from a perfect God. Man lived in the perfectly created earth (i.e., a paradise) with a perfect relationship with God.
ALLA:
False. It doesn't mean that everything was perfect. "Very good" doesn't mean perfect. God's works are perfect meaning that His works are righteous.

DANCEFORTWO:
Being that the original creation was perfect, there was no death before this (Genesis 1:29–30).
ALLA:
not true. Creation was very good, not perfect. There was no death in the garden of Eden when Adam and Eve lived there. But what does the Bible say about conditions on Earth long before Adam and Eve lived in the garden of Eden? The Bible says nothing, so you have no basis to assume what you assume - you can not say that there was no death on Earth before Adam and Eve were sent on Earth.

DANCEFORTWO:
2 God gave man and woman the freedom of contrary choice.3 The first two people God created were Adam and Eve, who were allowed to freely eat from any tree in the Garden of Eden except the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. They were to live forever with God.
ALLA:
yes, families are forever, husband and wife are together forever in eternity, marriage between Adam(man) and Eve(woman) is eternal.

DANCEFORTWO:
Again, there was no death.
However, Eve was tempted by a serpent (being influenced by Satan, who had rebelled against God in the heavenly realm), and then both Adam and Eve also rebelled against God by eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil; thus, they sinned (sin is rebellion against God4).
ALLA:
Not according to the Bible. According to the Bible they transgressed the law. There is a difference between transgression and sin. Eve was deceived not Adam.
Adam made a choice between two laws of God: Adam chose to transgress the second law "do not partake of the fruit" in order to obey the first law "leave your father and mother and cleave onto your wife and multiply and replenish"

DANCEFORTWO:
The result of Adam’s sin (rebellion against a Holy Creator) was God’s judgment through many curses. God cursed the ground, which mankind had dominion over (Genesis 1:28), to bring forth thorns and thistles. He sentenced man and woman to die, fulfilling what was spoken in Genesis 2:17. He also cursed the animals and, especially, the serpent.
ALLA:
But God did NOT curse Adam and Eve. He cursed everything but them. God didn't sentence them to die, they chose to die. They have made good or right choice.
That was first GOOD NEWS: Adam and Eve chose to fall so plan of God will be fulfilled. Second GOOD NEWS: they will have Savior.

DANCEFORTWO:
From this act of rebellion, we (i.e., humans, descendants of Adam) inherit “original sin.”
ALLA:
Wat verse in the Bible has words: "ORIGINAL sin"? I can't remember.

DANCEFORTWO:
This, in a layman’s sense, means that we are sentenced to die and are prone to sin because we were in Adam when he sinned.5 In essence, these curses are like God removing some of His sustaining power, so the creation is no longer upheld in a perfect state, but in bondage to sin and death (Romans 8:21)—hence, we now suffer things like cancer, sickness, suffering, and finally, death.
ALLA:
Adam and Eve became mortal beings. Mortal beings can not procreate immortal beings. It is good that they became mortal. It is good we are mortal and have opportunities to learn good and evil like cancer, suffering, death. Without those experiences we can not become like Gods. Serpent said the truth: if you partake of the fruit you will become like Gods who know good and evil.
To have a desire to become like Gods is righteous desire. God wants us to become like Him.
to be continued...

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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