Believe!
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17-10-2017, 03:35 PM
RE: Believe!
(17-10-2017 03:28 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(17-10-2017 03:18 PM)Eagle Wrote:  So yes, even if not for yourself, if you care about what your brother does with his money (despite the fact it's his money), you can show him how he doesn't have to tithe, how it's not sinful. However, he might just be happy giving his money anyway, which is his choice.

It's not the tithing I worry about. I don't even know if he still does that or what he gives away. It's the whole idea of submission to a non-corporeal, non-existent being to lead his life rather than to lead it himself. There are certain things that he believes in that he won't question because it has been drummed into his head that having faith is a good thing. And from that sincere faith leads many consequences.

If he is happy then are you thinking about him or yourself? Like you mentioned earlier, he was (?) the intelligent one, maybe he's on to something. Hey! I it's family haha, but, for me, I'd sooner worry about a family member who was miserable than one who was happy.

You know I disagree with you about God not existing, the evidence of God is everywhere. Where else did this world come from? A practically impossible unexplainable 'big bang', then apparently gases and explosions and collisions, everything practically impossibly all smashing about and into each other to form stars, planets, moons, then the impossibility of life evolving, then of complex life evolving. All that seems pretty far fetched to me,

'For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:' Romans 1:20
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17-10-2017, 03:38 PM
RE: Believe!
(17-10-2017 03:29 PM)Eagle Wrote:  Normal is people getting on with their lives, so, if it's frustration, it's still out of control and an undisciplined character.

If you think that you are even a blip in the normal course of my life you are sadly mistaken. You are just a way to kill a few minutes while waiting for the code I'm running to finish.

Like I said, keep telling yourself your little fantasies.

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17-10-2017, 03:38 PM
RE: Believe!
(17-10-2017 03:32 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(17-10-2017 03:18 PM)Eagle Wrote:  ... people like to change the Bible into what they want it to say, rather than what it does say.

Yes they do. What you don't seem to realize is that you are one of these people. Your interpretation of the Bible is no more "special" than anyone else's.

Aside from that, it's impossible to know exactly what the Bible "does say". It was written thousands of years ago in languages that are no longer in use today, in a culture that was radically different from ours, and we have none of the original manuscripts -- only copies that are inevitably corrupted. It's impossible not to "interpret" it.
That's a lot of assumptions, but no, I read the Bible as it is. I struggled to find a church for a long time after I became born again, because, heresies are everywhere.

The Bible is not corrupted haha, that is a LONG debate which I would not get into here (no offence, but truthfully, you make far too simplistic comments to discuss this in great detail, and of course trolls keep on popping up haha). But, in short, the King James Bible is not corrupt, but modern versions are, so if you want to read a Bible - get a KJV! Big Grin
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17-10-2017, 03:40 PM
RE: Believe!
(17-10-2017 03:38 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(17-10-2017 03:29 PM)Eagle Wrote:  Normal is people getting on with their lives, so, if it's frustration, it's still out of control and an undisciplined character.

If you think that you are even a blip in the normal course of my life you are sadly mistaken. You are just a way to kill a few minutes while waiting for the code I'm running to finish.

Like I said, keep telling yourself your little fantasies.
Haha, it's all me-me-me unfogged? Laughat Wink

Haha, just messing.
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17-10-2017, 03:52 PM (This post was last modified: 17-10-2017 03:57 PM by Grasshopper.)
RE: Believe!
(17-10-2017 03:38 PM)Eagle Wrote:  I read the Bible as it is.

.....

But, in short, the King James Bible is not corrupt, but modern versions are, so if you want to read a Bible - get a KJV! Big Grin

You contradict yourself. To read the Bible "as it is", you would have to read the original Hebrew and Greek (assuming you could find original manuscripts, which no longer exist). The KJV is not the Bible "as it is" -- it's a translation of the Bible, and any translation is inherently imperfect -- even a translation between two modern languages. When the original languages are dead ones, and the translation is into an archaic version of English, it only multiplies the inherent problems of translation.

"The King James Bible is not corrupt" is one of the funniest things I've read all day. (1) It couldn't possibly not be corrupt (nor could any translation); (2) I've read it, and experienced some of its problems firsthand. It's possibly better in some ways than some modern translations (it's my own favorite translation, but this is for literary reasons), but it's far from perfect. There is no such thing as a "perfect" translation of anything.

ETA: Also, in the not too distant past, just about all non-Catholics used the KJV, and yet, there were already numerous different sects, every one of them disagreeing with all the others. Apparently, its message is not as clear as you seem to think.
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17-10-2017, 03:53 PM
RE: Believe!
(17-10-2017 03:38 PM)Eagle Wrote:  But, in short, the King James Bible is not corrupt, but modern versions are, so if you want to read a Bible - get a KJV! Big Grin

Actually, if you really want to read the bible with even greater accuracy, you would need to learn Latin and Koine Greek. If you want to fully understand what you are reading, you would need to become very educated in ancient Christian/Roman/Jewish history.

You see, what you read in all English translation is not a translation at all, but rather it is an "interpretation." However, with older versions such as the King James, you have a scholarship that is greatly outdated since it is some 500 years old.

Scholarship has greatly improved over the centuries as new discoveries and new knowledge has become unearthed, which provides far greater understanding of past events than what could ever be understood at the time the KJV was written.

English itself was only about 300 years old at the time the KJV was written, and the ability to combine various areas of scholarship simply did not exist.

Does this make sense to you?

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17-10-2017, 03:54 PM
RE: Believe!
(17-10-2017 03:35 PM)Eagle Wrote:  You know I disagree with you about God not existing, the evidence of God is everywhere.

Your ignorance is not evidence.

So, here's another question for you to ignore:

Which bible are you using?

Greek Orthodox?
Russian Orthodox?
Georgian?
Armenian Apostolic?
New Testament of the Coptic Bible? (Egyptian)
The Peshitta Tradition? (Syrian)
The Ethiopian New Testament? (Ethiopian)
The Ethiopian Narrow Canon? (Ethiopian)
The Douay-Rheims Bible? (Roman Catholic)
The Authorized King James Version?
The English Revised Version?
The American Standard Version?
The Revised Standard Version?
The New American Standard Version?
The New King James Version?
The New International Version?
The English Standard Version?

What about the Apocryphal texts? How do you discount them?

Infancy Gospel of James
Infancy Gospel of Thomas
Syriac Infancy Gospel
History of Joseph the Carpenter
Life of John the Baptist
Gospel of the Ebionite
Gospel of the Hebrews
Gospel of the Nazarenes
Gospel of Marcion
Gospel of Mani
Gospel of Apelles
Gospel of Bardesanes
Gospel of Basilides
Gospel of Thomas
Gospel of Peter
Gospel of Nicodemus
Pseudo-Cyril of Jerusalem, On the Life and the Passion of Christ
Gospel of Bartholomew
Questions of Bartholomew
Resurrection of Jesus Christ
Apocryphon of James
Book of Thomas the Contender
Dialogue of the Saviour
Gospel of Judas
Gospel of Mary Magdalene
Gospel of Philip
Greek Gospel of the Egyptians
The Sophia of Jesus Christ
Coptic Apocalypse of Paul
Gospel of Truth
Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter
Pistis Sophia
Second Treatise of the Great Seth
Apocryphon of John
Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians
Trimorphic Protennoia
Ophite Diagrams
Books of Jeu
Acts of Andrew
Acts of Barnabas
Acts of John
Acts of the Martyrs
Acts of Paul
Acts of Paul and Thecla
Acts of Peter
Acts of Peter and Andrew
Acts of Peter and Paul
Acts of Peter and the Twelve
Acts of Philip
Acts of Pilate
Acts of Thomas
Acts of Timothy
Acts of Xanthippe, Polyxena, and Rebecca
Epistle of Barnabas
Epistles of Clement
Epistle of the Corinthians to Paul
Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans
Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians
Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians
Epistle to Diognetus
Epistle to the Laodiceans
Epistle to Seneca the Younger
Third Epistle to the Corinthians
Apocalypse of Paul
Apocalypse of Peter
Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius
Apocalypse of Thomas
Apocalypse of Stephen
First Apocalypse of James
Second Apocalypse of James
Apostolic Constitutions
Book of Nepos
Canons of the Apostles
Cave of Treasures
Clementine literature
Didache
Liturgy of St James
Penitence of Origen
Prayer of Paul
Sentences of Sextus
Physiologus
Book of the Bee
The Unknown Berlin Gospel
The Naassene Fragment
The Fayyum Fragment
The Secret Gospel of Mark
The Oxyrhynchus Gospels
The Egerton Gospel
Gospel of Eve
Gospel of the Four Heavenly Realms
Gospel of Matthias
Gospel of Perfection
Gospel of the Seventy
Gospel of Thaddaeus
Gospel of the Twelve
Memoria Apostolorum
1 and 2 Clement
Shepherd of Hermas
Didache
Epistle of Barnabas
Apocalypse of Peter
Third Epistle to the Corinthians


So which one do you use? Do you even know? Do you even care?

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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17-10-2017, 03:55 PM
RE: Believe!
(17-10-2017 03:35 PM)Eagle Wrote:  If he is happy then are you thinking about him or yourself? Like you mentioned earlier, he was (?) the intelligent one, maybe he's on to something. Hey! I it's family haha, but, for me, I'd sooner worry about a family member who was miserable than one who was happy.

Well he's not actually happy. He's in a job he hates and a loveless marriage it seems that he stays with her because he considers that it's wrong to divorce. And the more unhappy he becomes the more he throws himself into his christianity.He's basically a drug addict where religion is the drug. My mum worries that he might chuck his job in, sell his house and start proselytising in North Korea or Saudi Arabia or become homeless because his church teaches that their god will look after you. On their videos their training sessions rely heavily on confirmation bias.

I've had a lot worse things happen in my life and I'd say that I am probably happier than him because I have taken control of my destiny.


(17-10-2017 03:35 PM)Eagle Wrote:  You know I disagree with you about God not existing, the evidence of God is everywhere. Where else did this world come from? A practically impossible unexplainable 'big bang', then apparently gases and explosions and collisions, everything practically impossibly all smashing about and into each other to form stars, planets, moons, then the impossibility of life evolving, then of complex life evolving. All that seems pretty far fetched to me,

That's an argument from ignorance. It's all perfectly plausible if you understand the science. You may want to learn about non-equilibrium thermodynamics and self organisation.

The more I learn about it, the more I realise just how likely it is that life and intelligence can be found throughout the universe.

The more we figure out how we got from the Big Bang to modern day society the more irrelevant your god becomes as the gap to fit it into becomes ever smaller.
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17-10-2017, 03:59 PM
RE: Believe!
(17-10-2017 03:26 PM)Eagle Wrote:  
(17-10-2017 03:05 PM)mordant Wrote:  By whom? And does not agree with whose interpretation of the Bible?

The dictionary definition of cult in this sense is:


In other words it is simply a small / young religion that is at significant odds with the dominant religion in a particular society.

From the perspective of a generic Christian, that would be any religion that does not hold doctrine that sufficiently conforms to whatever historic creed that Christian subscribes to. For an evangelical, it would be any religion that is sufficiently divergent to be in one or more ways, heretical as per standard evangelical dogma.

It's all a matter of perspective of course because evangelicals, representing as they do a scant 17% of Christendom worldwide, are a relatively small and young (since 1830 or so) sect compared to, say, Catholicism. Kind of ironic, that.

The dictionary,
cult:
'a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object'

Any religious veneration which is directed toward a figure (ie a person) or an object (ie statue, money etc) is not directed towards God. The Bible is Gods word, so yes, Catholicism and many others are cults, because they move to a figure or an object, and not towards God's word.

mordant, you don't have to try to be really intelligent and come up with seemingly great and complex ideas, it's much more intelligent and straight forward to present things as they are. ie the definition of what a cult is, rather than trying to formulate ones own. You've more chance of getting it right using the dictionary definition, than trying to re-invent the wheel Wink

:yawn: I think we've already established you know jack shit about Catholicism when it relates to Scripture, Borg.

Need to think of a witty signature.
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17-10-2017, 04:00 PM
RE: Believe!
(17-10-2017 03:38 PM)Eagle Wrote:  But, in short, the King James Bible is not corrupt, but modern versions are, so if you want to read a Bible - get a KJV! Big Grin

FFS. The KJV was created by the Anglican church, which was founded by King Henry VIII so he could get a divorce. Because he couldn't legally murder any more wives.

Congratulations. You have successfully lowered the bar once again.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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