(Believer) Wife Has Agreed to Exchange Books...
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16-11-2013, 03:15 AM
RE: (Believer) Wife Has Agreed to Exchange Books...
Karen Armstrong's A History of God

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_History_of_God

Then she might understand the flimsiness of her current belief structure.

Good luck.

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16-11-2013, 03:18 PM (This post was last modified: 16-11-2013 03:29 PM by LunchBox.)
RE: (Believer) Wife Has Agreed to Exchange Books...
(15-11-2013 08:40 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Lunchbox,
Welcome to the community. Out of curiosity, what book does your wife want to send you? And may I suggest The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins as your present to her?

Doc

She wants to send me some book called "Raptured"...but it's not the one I looked up on Amazon...she says it's nonfiction...because I refuse to read fiction (except the Bible).

(15-11-2013 09:06 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Actually, maybe a better question to ask is, what aspect of not believing does she have the most trouble with, and what does she feel her strongest reason to believe is? Perhaps tailor it to these things, rather than a general book.

I don't really know...I think she thinks I'll eventually "come around"...who knows. I don't know what she feels her strongest reason to believe is...but I can tell you she comes from a family of the type of christians that made a lot of people into atheists...she went to a private christian school...so she is well indoctrinated.

Let your anger be as a monkey in a piñata...hiding amongst the candy...hoping the kids don't break through with the stick!

---Master Tang---
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16-11-2013, 03:42 PM
RE: (Believer) Wife Has Agreed to Exchange Books...
(16-11-2013 02:49 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  So you're saying she understands that her thoughts are irrational, but has made the conscious choice to hold on to them anyway.

Give her a book on Wiccan magic. Maybe she'll convert and begin to believe that she can turn you into a believer.
If this were to happen, would you still consider her to be highly educated ?

A.) I didn't say that...she is a rational person, a believer, and doesn't realize how irrational her beliefs are.

B.) Based on your second blurb, I'm not sure why you bothered to reply. You misunderstood what I wrote, turned my wife into an idiot (implicitly), then asked if I would still consider her highly educated, which is ironic, since the level of someon'e education is objective, and quantifiable. I think you meant "smart", or "rational"...subjective terms like that.

Additionally, I think most of us in the evil-atheist category know full well why people are entrenched in their beliefs, such that handing them a different set of beliefs is either a waste of time, or that specific believer is so stupid, a new set of beliefs would be accepted on face value, and years of indictrination wiped away.

So...which is it? Is my wife really stupid...or do you not understand why people believe what they do?

Let your anger be as a monkey in a piñata...hiding amongst the candy...hoping the kids don't break through with the stick!

---Master Tang---
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16-11-2013, 05:27 PM
RE: (Believer) Wife Has Agreed to Exchange Books...
Seth's, De-converted is very accessible and a quick, light read for what some might find to be a heavy subject.
Hitchens', God Is Not Great might begin with the feel of an attack but one finds it to be actually very straight forward with lot of information in a very concise work. Pleasant vocabulary and easy to read.

I would recommend both. Hitch nails the coffin shut on religion with God Is Not Great and Seth's De-converted will make it feel like that's really an ok thing. Thumbsup

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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16-11-2013, 10:18 PM
RE: (Believer) Wife Has Agreed to Exchange Books...
(16-11-2013 03:42 PM)LunchBox Wrote:  
(16-11-2013 02:49 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  So you're saying she understands that her thoughts are irrational, but has made the conscious choice to hold on to them anyway.

Give her a book on Wiccan magic. Maybe she'll convert and begin to believe that she can turn you into a believer.
If this were to happen, would you still consider her to be highly educated ?

A.) I didn't say that...she is a rational person, a believer, and doesn't realize how irrational her beliefs are.

B.) Based on your second blurb, I'm not sure why you bothered to reply. You misunderstood what I wrote, turned my wife into an idiot (implicitly), then asked if I would still consider her highly educated, which is ironic, since the level of someon'e education is objective, and quantifiable. I think you meant "smart", or "rational"...subjective terms like that.

Additionally, I think most of us in the evil-atheist category know full well why people are entrenched in their beliefs, such that handing them a different set of beliefs is either a waste of time, or that specific believer is so stupid, a new set of beliefs would be accepted on face value, and years of indictrination wiped away.

So...which is it? Is my wife really stupid...or do you not understand why people believe what they do?

Imagine me telling you about an engineer who designs car engines but has a long held family belief in which he or she was indoctrinated to believe that tiny invisible hamsters create the power that causes the car to move and the engine itself is simply a mechanical devise that gives us the impression that it's not the hamsters.

And then imagine me telling you that this person is rational.

Yes, when it comes to religion, your wife is stupid. In every other facet of her life you say she is rational, but for some reason, this part of her brain that processes religious information doesn't function correctly and no I don't understand why people believe the crap they believe. I chalk it up to a chemical imbalance in the brain that creates gullibility.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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16-11-2013, 10:18 PM
RE: (Believer) Wife Has Agreed to Exchange Books...
Thanks, Kim. I know my wife will be put off by a blatant argument against god. Which...as much as I love Hitch and Dawkins...rules them out...LOL.

I tend to agree that Seth's book may be a winner here. More of an explanation as to where I'm at, and why...easy to read, and doesn't monopolize one's time. However, I picked up "godless", by Dan Barker. As much as I enjoyed Seth's story, and likened it to my own in a way...I cannot put Barker's book down. I was almost a quarter of the way through the book, a couple hours after picking it up...trying to ignore the protest of my stomach as it reminded me dinner wouldn't make itself.

Unlike the beleivers around me trying to herd me back in...I'm actually going to read the book I pass on for myself. My sister sent me "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist"...although I doubt she read it. It's kind of fun to read...but it stinks of a sales pitch, shoots itself in the foot by page 25...and leaves the rest up to lazy logic.

Let your anger be as a monkey in a piñata...hiding amongst the candy...hoping the kids don't break through with the stick!

---Master Tang---
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16-11-2013, 10:22 PM
RE: (Believer) Wife Has Agreed to Exchange Books...
(15-11-2013 08:40 PM)sandman Wrote:  I recommend "Lectures of Col. R. G. Ingersoll".

Ingersoll is good. ManlyGirl is trying to get me to read "How To Go On Living When Someone You Love Dies" 'cause I ain't been quite right in the head since my brother kicked it. It didn't take. Tongue

I am us and we is me. ... bitches.
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16-11-2013, 10:44 PM
RE: (Believer) Wife Has Agreed to Exchange Books...
(16-11-2013 10:18 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Imagine me telling you about an engineer who designs car engines but has a long held family belief in which he or she was indoctrinated to believe that tiny invisible hamsters create the power that causes the car to move and the engine itself is simply a mechanical devise that gives us the impression that it's not the hamsters.

And then imagine me telling you that this person is rational.

Yes, when it comes to religion, your wife is stupid. In every other facet of her life you say she is rational, but for some reason, this part of her brain that processes religious information doesn't function correctly and no I don't understand why people believe the crap they believe. I chalk it up to a chemical imbalance in the brain that creates gullibility.

I would say that if you rigorously train a child to believe red is green and up is down, I would have a hard time convincing them otherwise down the road. Now...I came from a position in which the indoctrination attempt was made, but I never really bought in. However, I saw then, and see now, the effects of this in others. This effect is multiplied via the ad populum fallacy as so many are ready to step up and verify the same delusion...unlike the invisible hamster theory.

But to say my wife is religiously "stupid", when she is going by what she was taught as a child by trusted adults would be the same as claiming the green/red up/down child it "stupid"...rather than ill-informed. Ill-informed implies a lack of education...for instance, I'm not "stupid" by any stretch of the imagination...but if you ask me to break down parts of a novel, I'll stumble like an idiot. Why? Because I never focussed on fiction, and don't find it useful...and have never bothered to learn it. And again...my wife is well educated, so I wouldn't say she is "stupid" for following what she was taught for the first half of her life. More correctly, she has not been adequately exposed to the counter-claims. We need to exercise a little caution here and not lump in all believers as gullible dumb-asses. A great many of them are rational people, and their reasoning, like yours and mine, is based on what they have learned about reality...and think about from where that comes. Start treating them like enemies...and that they will become. Start understanding them for what they are, in the context of what they were taught, and we can make some damn progress. We need to look at believers as victims...because that's goddamn sure what they are.

Let your anger be as a monkey in a piñata...hiding amongst the candy...hoping the kids don't break through with the stick!

---Master Tang---
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16-11-2013, 10:49 PM
RE: (Believer) Wife Has Agreed to Exchange Books...
(16-11-2013 10:22 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(15-11-2013 08:40 PM)sandman Wrote:  I recommend "Lectures of Col. R. G. Ingersoll".

Ingersoll is good. ManlyGirl is trying to get me to read "How To Go On Living When Someone You Love Dies" 'cause I ain't been quite right in the head since my brother kicked it. It didn't take. Tongue

Yeah I read that a while back about your brother...I hope all is well with you. Without religious bullshit to soften up our outlook on our limited existence...we can only pick up a part of those we've lost and carry it forward as a part of ourselves.

Let your anger be as a monkey in a piñata...hiding amongst the candy...hoping the kids don't break through with the stick!

---Master Tang---
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16-11-2013, 11:34 PM
RE: (Believer) Wife Has Agreed to Exchange Books...
(16-11-2013 10:18 PM)LunchBox Wrote:  I picked up "godless", by Dan Barker. As much as I enjoyed Seth's story, and likened it to my own in a way...I cannot put Barker's book down. I was almost a quarter of the way through the book, a couple hours after picking it up...trying to ignore the protest of my stomach as it reminded me dinner wouldn't make itself.

Dan Barker - I forgot about him! Yes - I haven't read that but I've heard it's great.

One I have read and just remembered, is a very easy, quite funny book by Julia Sweeny, Letting Go of God. I found it extremely funny and somewhat bittersweet with great insights from someone in search of "truth" ... who never considered that truth wouldn't include god.

Another of Julia Sweeny's I highly recommend is, If It's Not One Thing, It's Your Mother. Once again, and extremely funny and poignant memoir of her relationship with her daughter, her brother and family, but mainly, her self. There are insights about coming to terms with no god and raising a child with no god.

If your wife likes to listen to audio books, Julia reads all her own books; her words become quite personal and her voice is comfortable - like a sister. I download mine through audible.com and put them on my little ipod for work. I often laugh out loud and people wonder what the hell is up. Tongue

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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