Believing That God Doesn't Exist
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15-11-2013, 12:49 AM
RE: Believing That God Doesn't Exist
(14-11-2013 02:21 PM)jockmcdock Wrote:  I agree that AoE can in certain circumstances come to look like EoA. If we had observations available from 1940 (a few years after the last thylocine died), we'd probably conclude there was some reason to suppose they were extinct, but not overwhelming evidence. In 2013, we have no further evidence that they were still extant. That's why I said I believe they are extinct. If i had data from from 2113 and there was no more evidence that thylacines still exist, I'd be more confident that that they were extinct.

But my point was that one piece of (good, solid) evidence can overthrow AoE.

Example: what colour are swans? Europeans believed all swans were white until they reached Australia. There they found black swans. Hundreds of years of AoE had indicated that black swans did not exist (although to be fair, I doubt anyone had raised that hypothesis). but they did and do.

So at what point does AoE become EoA? Do we have to go to Tasmania and chop down all of the forests, then if we still see no Thylacines, is that good enough evidence of their absence? Do we then need to glass over the island with nuclear weapons? Bulldozer the ground down and let it be eroded by the ocean?

At what point does the lack of evidence that we would expect to see for a given premise, becomes evidence for the lack of said premise? Consider

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15-11-2013, 01:32 AM (This post was last modified: 15-11-2013 01:47 AM by kim.)
RE: Believing That God Doesn't Exist
(15-11-2013 12:49 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So at what point does AoE become EoA? Do we have to go to Tasmania and chop down all of the forests, then if we still see no Thylacines, is that good enough evidence of their absence? Do we then need to glass over the island with nuclear weapons? Bulldozer the ground down and let it be eroded by the ocean?

Hey, if I didn't know better, I'd say it's almost as if you're just trying to make this nonexistent thing not exist. Blink

(15-11-2013 12:49 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  At what point does the lack of evidence that we would expect to see for a given premise, becomes evidence for the lack of said premise? Consider

Maybe at the point after one stops wishing for the non existent thing to shit or get off the pot show itself or fuck off we'll take our biscuits and go home.
We are talking about god Thylacine, right? Dodgy

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15-11-2013, 01:34 AM
RE: Believing That God Doesn't Exist
dp

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15-11-2013, 01:35 AM
RE: Believing That God Doesn't Exist
(15-11-2013 01:34 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(15-11-2013 01:32 AM)kim Wrote:  At the point one stops wishing for the non existent thing to shit or get off the pot show itself or fuck off we'll take out biscuits and go home.
We are talking about god Thylacine, right? Dodgy

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15-11-2013, 01:49 AM
RE: Believing That God Doesn't Exist
(15-11-2013 01:32 AM)kim Wrote:  Maybe at the point after one stops wishing for the non existent thing to shit or get off the pot show itself or fuck off we'll take our biscuits and go home.
We are talking about god Thylacine, right? Dodgy

I am agnostic in regards to Thylacines using toilets and fucking off. Smile

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15-11-2013, 02:09 AM
RE: Believing That God Doesn't Exist
In many cases absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
I know the classic line says it's not, but it's not true.

There is no evidence that an elephant is in my room right now. This is not evidence that elephants don't exist.
It just means that right now, the evidence of absence is suited to the idea that an elephant is not in my room.

When it comes to a being (a god) defined as we define it, we can use evidence of absence of action to give some credence to the idea that this being is not interacting with this world according to our definitions of that being.

This god being could exist but simply doesn't have the definition qualities that we have attributed to it.

There is no evidence of a good, caring, all powerful, all knowing deity who would perform certain actions and have a world wide impact if such a being existed. No actions, no world wide impact would lead one to believe that the evidence of absence is more than sufficient to believe that a god doesn't exist on this world.

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15-11-2013, 02:26 AM
RE: Believing That God Doesn't Exist
I think there are some who think a deity - "must exist, otherwise, why would people look for it?". I find that completely dithery.

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15-11-2013, 02:33 AM
RE: Believing That God Doesn't Exist
(15-11-2013 02:26 AM)kim Wrote:  I think there are some who think a deity - "must exist, otherwise, why would people look for it?". I find that completely dithery.

You could say the same of Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster. I agree totally.

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15-11-2013, 05:15 AM
RE: Believing That God Doesn't Exist
(15-11-2013 02:26 AM)kim Wrote:  I find that completely dithery.

I found that completely zithery.

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15-11-2013, 05:55 AM
RE: Believing That God Doesn't Exist
(15-11-2013 12:49 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  At what point does the lack of evidence that we would expect to see for a given premise, becomes evidence for the lack of said premise? Consider

According to Bayesian epistemology that "point" consists of plausible assumptions. But then we could argue about plausibility.

For example, we know that given sufficiently (but not overly) moist ground a fox will leave footprints. That is a plausible assumption. If the chicken is missing from its coop and there are no fox footprints around the coop then it is reasonable to conclude that a fox did not take the chicken. In this case the AoE (footprints) is EofA (a fox did not take the chicken).

In relation to theism, what constitutes plausible assumptions is not as straightforward as fox footprints because the nature of any deity isn't clearly stated in any scripture and we don't know anything about any deity other that what we are told in scripture. Is it plausible to assume that a deity with Yahweh's intentions would remain so well-hidden?
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