Believing in something without needing evidence.....conspiracy theory?
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04-06-2013, 05:38 PM
RE: Believing in something without needing evidence.....conspiracy theory?
(04-06-2013 04:13 PM)I and I Wrote:  What makes you think they really believed what they were saying? And like I said, people here didnt believe me when I said that people here believe what you believe about the build up to the Iraq war.

The part where the claims of Iraqi WMDs were based on real (possible but unlikely, but real nonetheless) evidence, but were amplified beyond all reason by confirmation bias in a political echo chamber? The part where the civilian administration overruled the military advice they received? The part where almost no plans were made for the rebuilding of Iraqi society and government - something that seems way more plausible if the people in charge genuinely believed all that "they'll embrace democracy with open arms and flowers" stuff they were spouting beforehand? The part where they tried to do the occupation on the cheap, to, ultimately, nobody's benefit? The fact that the region is STILL suffering horribly from the fallout of those actions? The part where international opinion of the United States (and its concomitant soft power) took a huge nosedive and has never recovered?

Not exactly the tight planning and execution you'd expect of people dedicated and competent enough to pull off a massive and thoroughly coordinated disinformation campaign (and false flag attacks, if you wanna go full retard). That's what I meant about conspiracy theories being inconsistent.
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04-06-2013, 05:59 PM
Believing in something without needing evidence.....conspiracy theory?
(04-06-2013 05:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(04-06-2013 04:13 PM)I and I Wrote:  What makes you think they really believed what they were saying? And like I said, people here didnt believe me when I said that people here believe what you believe about the build up to the Iraq war.

The part where the claims of Iraqi WMDs were based on real (possible but unlikely, but real nonetheless) evidence, but were amplified beyond all reason by confirmation bias in a political echo chamber? The part where the civilian administration overruled the military advice they received? The part where almost no plans were made for the rebuilding of Iraqi society and government - something that seems way more plausible if the people in charge genuinely believed all that "they'll embrace democracy with open arms and flowers" stuff they were spouting beforehand? The part where they tried to do the occupation on the cheap, to, ultimately, nobody's benefit? The fact that the region is STILL suffering horribly from the fallout of those actions? The part where international opinion of the United States (and its concomitant soft power) took a huge nosedive and has never recovered?

Not exactly the tight planning and execution you'd expect of people dedicated and competent enough to pull off a massive and thoroughly coordinated disinformation campaign (and false flag attacks, if you wanna go full retard). That's what I meant about conspiracy theories being inconsistent.

What real evidence were they using to confirm to themselves that Hussein had wmd's?
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04-06-2013, 06:39 PM
RE: Believing in something without needing evidence.....conspiracy theory?
(04-06-2013 12:06 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(04-06-2013 11:26 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  What contradiction?

They keep secrets and are found out.

It suggests they're either pretty bad at keeping things secret, or that the number of unexposed actions dwarfs the number of exposed actions. One of these seems likelier than the other...

Perhaps I'm a bit thick but I still don't see where I made a contradictory statement.

And I'm thinking it's the latter. In fact, I'd bet on it.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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05-06-2013, 10:49 AM
RE: Believing in something without needing evidence.....conspiracy theory?
(04-06-2013 06:39 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Perhaps I'm a bit thick but I still don't see where I made a contradictory statement.

And I'm thinking it's the latter. In fact, I'd bet on it.

What seems contradictory to me is supposing very complicated, involved, secretive actions which are also easily found out. It would take a very special kind of blindness to (dragging out the same tired old example yet again) plan and execute 9/11, and yet have that culpability exposed by any schmuck with freeze-frame.

The classic "conspiracy theories" (hard to define, I suppose - wasn't that nominally what this thread was about to begin with?) are more than just collusion and corruption among powerful actors. Because yeah, there's a lot of that. They're positing hidden meanings in some of the world's most resonant geopolitical events.

It only makes sense to start supposing hidden explanations when actions are not adequately explained by their known details. Is there anything you have in mind like that?
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05-06-2013, 10:58 AM
RE: Believing in something without needing evidence.....conspiracy theory?
(05-06-2013 10:49 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(04-06-2013 06:39 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Perhaps I'm a bit thick but I still don't see where I made a contradictory statement.

And I'm thinking it's the latter. In fact, I'd bet on it.

What seems contradictory to me is supposing very complicated, involved, secretive actions which are also easily found out. It would take a very special kind of blindness to (dragging out the same tired old example yet again) plan and execute 9/11, and yet have that culpability exposed by any schmuck with freeze-frame.

The classic "conspiracy theories" (hard to define, I suppose - wasn't that nominally what this thread was about to begin with?) are more than just collusion and corruption among powerful actors. Because yeah, there's a lot of that. They're positing hidden meanings in some of the world's most resonant geopolitical events.

It only makes sense to start supposing hidden explanations when actions are not adequately explained by their known details. Is there anything you have in mind like that?

It doesn't matter if they are easily found out or not, you have to convince only a certain amount of people, then the rest that aren't convinced are ridiculed and censored by the collective mob. You have alot of trust in governments because you are essentially saying that the U.S. government doesn't lie on a big scale because it can't do it and keep it secret. There are declassified docs on past covert operations that people don't believe happened for fuck sake. It's about belief, and there are anti conspiracy believers and they are hardcore even when seeing declassified CIA docs that anyone with internet can have access to.
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05-06-2013, 11:02 AM
RE: Believing in something without needing evidence.....conspiracy theory?
(05-06-2013 10:49 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(04-06-2013 06:39 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Perhaps I'm a bit thick but I still don't see where I made a contradictory statement.

And I'm thinking it's the latter. In fact, I'd bet on it.

What seems contradictory to me is supposing very complicated, involved, secretive actions which are also easily found out. It would take a very special kind of blindness to (dragging out the same tired old example yet again) plan and execute 9/11, and yet have that culpability exposed by any schmuck with freeze-frame.

The classic "conspiracy theories" (hard to define, I suppose - wasn't that nominally what this thread was about to begin with?) are more than just collusion and corruption among powerful actors. Because yeah, there's a lot of that. They're positing hidden meanings in some of the world's most resonant geopolitical events.

It only makes sense to start supposing hidden explanations when actions are not adequately explained by their known details. Is there anything you have in mind like that?

I'm not sure if I've mentioned this already... if I have, sorry for being repetitive.

When we see a group of lions colluding to take down a gazelle, we don't assume they met before the attack and conspired to set upon the gazelle.

Human beings are no different. People acting in their irrational self interest tend toward keeping things secret with no implicit or explicit instructions to do so.

And if I've given you the impression that I have a conspiracy theory about the 9/11 attacks, I apologize. I do not. Nor do I agree with a majority of any conspiracy theories I've read about the event. I don't know what happened but I do know that human beings, when presented with power, tend to abuse it for their own purposes. Sometimes that includes keeping secrets, conspiring with others or even causing or allowing others to cause disastrous events.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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05-06-2013, 11:05 AM
RE: Believing in something without needing evidence.....conspiracy theory?
(04-06-2013 05:59 PM)I and I Wrote:  What real evidence were they using to confirm to themselves that Hussein had wmd's?

There were facilities whose purpose wasn't immediately obvious. The Iraqi government was sometimes uncooperative with UN inspectors (justified or not, it was an imposition on their soveriegnty). They did have a large stockpile of uranium (which predated the first gulf war and was still sitting exactly where the UN inspectors left it - they weren't idiots). Saddam had used chemical weapons in the past.

String those together with enough wishful thinking and self-deception, and you get - well, you get what happened.
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05-06-2013, 11:20 AM
RE: Believing in something without needing evidence.....conspiracy theory?
(05-06-2013 11:02 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Human beings are no different. People acting in their irrational self interest tend toward keeping things secret with no implicit or explicit instructions to do so.
... human beings, when presented with power, tend to abuse it for their own purposes. Sometimes that includes keeping secrets, conspiring with others or even causing or allowing others to cause disastrous events.

We're not really disagreeing on anything - but to just admit that to begin with is hardly proper form on an internet forum Big Grin.

People do bad things; the difference, when it comes to powerful people, is in the scope of those things. Most people (nobody's perfect, even if they're mostly decent) lie, cheat, and steal in the course of their lives (perhaps not frequently, or explicitly, or even intentionally). But most of that is utterly inconsequential. But for, say, a government, the scope of what's inconsequential is also increased.

Obviously people conspire. It's just that "conspiracy theories" ruined that word for us.

(05-06-2013 11:02 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  And if I've given you the impression that I have a conspiracy theory about the 9/11 attacks, I apologize. I do not. Nor do I agree with a majority of any conspiracy theories I've read about the event.

You did say you were skeptical of the official story (not necessarily in that specific case). I agree skepticism's healthy! But in that context it's often a cover for simple denialism. I apologize for misinterpreting you due to the context.
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05-06-2013, 11:40 AM
RE: Believing in something without needing evidence.....conspiracy theory?
(05-06-2013 11:20 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(05-06-2013 11:02 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Human beings are no different. People acting in their irrational self interest tend toward keeping things secret with no implicit or explicit instructions to do so.
... human beings, when presented with power, tend to abuse it for their own purposes. Sometimes that includes keeping secrets, conspiring with others or even causing or allowing others to cause disastrous events.

We're not really disagreeing on anything - but to just admit that to begin with is hardly proper form on an internet forum Big Grin.

People do bad things; the difference, when it comes to powerful people, is in the scope of those things. Most people (nobody's perfect, even if they're mostly decent) lie, cheat, and steal in the course of their lives (perhaps not frequently, or explicitly, or even intentionally). But most of that is utterly inconsequential. But for, say, a government, the scope of what's inconsequential is also increased.

Obviously people conspire. It's just that "conspiracy theories" ruined that word for us.

(05-06-2013 11:02 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  And if I've given you the impression that I have a conspiracy theory about the 9/11 attacks, I apologize. I do not. Nor do I agree with a majority of any conspiracy theories I've read about the event.

You did say you were skeptical of the official story (not necessarily in that specific case). I agree skepticism's healthy! But in that context it's often a cover for simple denialism. I apologize for misinterpreting you due to the context.

So what do we do now? We have nothing to fight about. Sadcryface

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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05-06-2013, 12:11 PM
RE: Believing in something without needing evidence.....conspiracy theory?
(05-06-2013 11:40 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  So what do we do now? We have nothing to fight about. Sadcryface

Why, you.. Them's fightin' words!
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