Believing
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15-04-2017, 01:27 PM
RE: Believing
(15-04-2017 08:56 AM)adey67 Wrote:  I Must keep mouth shut, Must keep mouth shut
I Must keep mouth shut, Must keep mouth shut

Welcome to TTABig Grin
I hope your stay will be a profitable one, I'm not sure what help or support we can offer you but you might want to consider couching your posts using different terms and language, most atheists know the bible and other religious texts and doctrines better than the adherents themselves, which makes them far from ignorant, in fact it makes them a threat to the religious which is why they so frequently feel the need to discredit and misrepresent the atheist. I suspect it was a religious individual who suggested to you that atheists are ignorant, don't listen to them clearly they have an agenda.

There are statistics that indicate that Atheists are better informed on religions than religious folk (at least on average).... so... this is a demonstrable fact.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
Big Grin
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15-04-2017, 01:31 PM
RE: Believing
(15-04-2017 07:35 AM)Observer123 Wrote:  Hello guys,
I came to this medium to ask a question, more specifically: Which belief am I looking for?
Short introduction: I’m Belgian, studying economics, 22 years old and baptized when I was too young to decide for myself what I wanted to believe in.
My first statement is that I am not an atheist. Now most of you would fire with the question ‘what are you doing here then?’ It’s because atheism is the closest thing to what I believe. But during many encounters I find atheists ignorant, ignorant towards other religions. (Just like a lot of Christians and Jews, etc. are) Some of you just ignore other religions/cultures because you’re just convinced of your own point of view while ignoring the fact that there is so much more to different kinds of religions than meets the eye. Some of you must understand that religion is much more than just god. There are so many things that are involved in a religion.
Quick example, you are a father of 2 children. Your wife kids, mom, father They all crash in a car accident and you don’t have anybody left… Except for god… He will always be there right. It is an untouchable and never changing object/spirit/person whatever that will always be there and it gives people hope. This is one of the thousands of reasons perhaps millions why I respect religion. Or on historical level that they needed stories to explain certain phenomenon’s. But I hope we are past that point now and we are looking forward!
I’m 85% sure there isn’t a higher power but I believe there are other kinds of materials, physics and other scientific elements that haven’t been discovered that might come close to the term “God”, “Buddha”, …
But I wouldn’t be a millennial if I wasn’t going to say there should be a division of powers. Governments have to stop giving money to the churches and synagogues and in the other direction religions have to stop interfering with political issues. They should merely exist as an opinion giver and to shed a different light on these topics without provoking people to take action. That is just my opinion.

But I am drifting of. I am looking for a belief that doesn’t neglect the existence of a god nor believes in it. More like an observing belief. And I also I’m convinced that if there is some higher power or substance or whatever it is not here for us. Why would it? The entire human population is just one drop of water in the ocean. If the Earth formed at midnight and the present moment is the next midnight, 24 hours later, modern humans have been around since 11:59:59pm—1 second. So why would any god be here for us?
I fear death, but I don’t create a story to make me feel better. (life after death) I’m not a pessimist even though I have moments when I realize everything we do is just worthless but then again it is all about living in the moment. Enjoying life when you are here.
Also, I have an opinion on immigration. I know it is inevitable and we should work towards a harmonious multicultural world. It has been like this since the dawn of men, different tribes becoming bigger tribes, villages becoming cities, it already happened on a smaller scale and now it is just happening on a global scale and perhaps in a few hundred years we’ll have to mingle with the aliens. It’s just how things go and we shouldn’t follow extremists anymore, but their opinion always needs to be there it matters because people need this.
Then I have a bunch of theories about the fact that humans should work together as one race and start looking at the universe just like Colombus was looking at the ocean not knowing what is at the end of it. But I’m going to quit my lecture here.

So does anybody know where my opinions fit in most? Nihilism or atheism anyway? Help me out.

First of all, declaring those on this forum as ignorant is a dick move, check your own ignorance first.

A Milquetoast deism would serve you just fine.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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15-04-2017, 02:59 PM
RE: Believing
You don't get to tell us what we must do. And religion being more than god is obvious - it's social control tool, blankie for those afraid of living without big brother supervision and opiate for earhly misery.

About your example - it is shit. There is no god to make grief and pain go away no matter what indoctrinated people believe.

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The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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15-04-2017, 03:14 PM
RE: Believing
(15-04-2017 07:35 AM)Observer123 Wrote:  Hello guys,
I came to this medium to ask a question, more specifically: Which belief am I looking for?
Short introduction: I’m Belgian, studying economics, 22 years old and baptized when I was too young to decide for myself what I wanted to believe in.
My first statement is that I am not an atheist. Now most of you would fire with the question ‘what are you doing here then?’ It’s because atheism is the closest thing to what I believe. But during many encounters I find atheists ignorant, ignorant towards other religions. (Just like a lot of Christians and Jews, etc. are) Some of you just ignore other religions/cultures because you’re just convinced of your own point of view while ignoring the fact that there is so much more to different kinds of religions than meets the eye.

[Image: How-to-win-friends-and-influence-people.jpg]

Quote:Some of you must understand that religion is much more than just god. There are so many things that are involved in a religion.

Yep, there's pointless ritual, tithing, and condescension.

Quote:Quick example, you are a father of 2 children. Your wife kids, mom, father They all crash in a car accident and you don’t have anybody left… Except for god… He will always be there right. It is an untouchable and never changing object/spirit/person whatever that will always be there and it gives people hope.

In other words, a security blanket for adults.

Quote: This is one of the thousands of reasons perhaps millions why I respect religion.

It's a large part of why I despise it. It turns people from relying on themselves and other real people in their lives and has them focus everything on an apparently imaginary friend. It strips people of their humanity.

Quote: Or on historical level that they needed stories to explain certain phenomenon’s. But I hope we are past that point now and we are looking forward!

That seems to be a non-sequitur.

Quote:I’m 85% sure there isn’t a higher power but I believe there are other kinds of materials, physics and other scientific elements that haven’t been discovered that might come close to the term “God”, “Buddha”, …

There is much we do not know. Why you would think an unknown might come close to some arbitrary concept you have is a mystery to me.

Quote:But I wouldn’t be a millennial if I wasn’t going to say there should be a division of powers. Governments have to stop giving money to the churches and synagogues and in the other direction religions have to stop interfering with political issues. They should merely exist as an opinion giver and to shed a different light on these topics without provoking people to take action. That is just my opinion.

I'm all for separation of church and state but I don't respect the opinion of any group that has no evidence for its positions so I have no interest in what religion has to say about any topic.

Quote:But I am drifting of. I am looking for a belief that doesn’t neglect the existence of a god nor believes in it. More like an observing belief.

That's contradictory. If it doesn't believe then it isn't a belief.

Quote:So does anybody know where my opinions fit in most? Nihilism or atheism anyway? Help me out.

Deism? Pantheism? Panentheism? Observer123ism? Why do you need a label for it?

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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15-04-2017, 03:54 PM
RE: Believing
(15-04-2017 07:35 AM)Observer123 Wrote:  Some of you must understand that religion is much more than just god. There are so many things that are involved in a religion.

Quick example, you are a father of 2 children. Your wife kids, mom, father They all crash in a car accident and you don’t have anybody left… Except for god… He will always be there right. It is an untouchable and never changing object/spirit/person whatever that will always be there and it gives people hope. This is one of the thousands of reasons perhaps millions why I respect religion.
Yeah except that you are assuming that everyone would respond to this in the same way.

My response to this would be, god, who is supposed to bless the righteous and confound the wicked, just let me down and took (or allowed to be taken, which amounts to the same thing) everything and everyone I cared about without so much as a fare-thee-well. So it would be no comfort at all, but rather a betrayal.

Until, of course, I realized that god was just an imagined construct installed in me by my family and religion of origin. THEN I'd feel better.

This is not ignorant, it is a reiteration of the broad strokes of my own life experience. Devoted god-follower, formal theological training, pillar of the church, and then my life didn't follow the promised story arc. Whoops.
(15-04-2017 07:35 AM)Observer123 Wrote:  I am looking for a belief that doesn’t neglect the existence of a god nor believes in it. More like an observing belief.
Sounds like agnosticism to me. Gnosis = knowledge, Agnostic = considering god to be either unknowable (original Huxley definition) or at least making no personal knowledge claims about his existence (more common modern definition). Most of us here are agnostic atheists. The atheism part is the belief claim piece. We see no valid reason at this time with current evidence to think gods to be anything but extremely unlikely, therefore do not afford belief to them. This, you might call, an observing DISbelief. The reason I am not "observantly believing" is because not only is there not a shred of evidence for deities generally or specifically, but, invisible personal deities are inherently unfalsifiable and therefore no credible knowledge claim (for or against) CAN be made for them; they are simply irrelevant. Then there's the whole issue of the supernatural being a non-starter concept; if something is supernatural it is also non-discussable because it's outside of nature and no credible knowledge claims can possibly be made about it by us denizens of the natural world. The supernatural, where invisible gods and realms dwell, is a useless concept.
(15-04-2017 07:35 AM)Observer123 Wrote:  And I also I’m convinced that if there is some higher power or substance or whatever it is not here for us. Why would it? The entire human population is just one drop of water in the ocean. If the Earth formed at midnight and the present moment is the next midnight, 24 hours later, modern humans have been around since 11:59:59pm—1 second. So why would any god be here for us?
I fear death, but I don’t create a story to make me feel better. (life after death) I’m not a pessimist even though I have moments when I realize everything we do is just worthless but then again it is all about living in the moment. Enjoying life when you are here.

So does anybody know where my opinions fit in most? Nihilism or atheism anyway? Help me out.
I think if you properly understand atheism, you are a "soft" or agnostic atheist. Or, an agnostic atheist in denial, which would be a deist, provisional worshipper of the absent clockmaker.
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16-04-2017, 03:18 PM
RE: Believing
I smell a drive by.
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16-04-2017, 11:26 PM
RE: Believing
(16-04-2017 03:18 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  I smell a drive by.

Yeah, seems like thinly veiled insults with a bit of preaching.

I'm not sure why seeking a label would be such a big deal.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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17-04-2017, 07:42 AM
RE: Believing
(15-04-2017 07:35 AM)Observer123 Wrote:  Hello guys,
I came to this medium to ask a question, more specifically: Which belief am I looking for?
Short introduction: I’m Belgian, studying economics, 22 years old and baptized when I was too young to decide for myself what I wanted to believe in.
My first statement is that I am not an atheist. Now most of you would fire with the question ‘what are you doing here then?’ It’s because atheism is the closest thing to what I believe. But during many encounters I find atheists ignorant, ignorant towards other religions. (Just like a lot of Christians and Jews, etc. are) Some of you just ignore other religions/cultures because you’re just convinced of your own point of view while ignoring the fact that there is so much more to different kinds of religions than meets the eye. Some of you must understand that religion is much more than just god. There are so many things that are involved in a religion.
Quick example, you are a father of 2 children. Your wife kids, mom, father They all crash in a car accident and you don’t have anybody left… Except for god… He will always be there right. It is an untouchable and never changing object/spirit/person whatever that will always be there and it gives people hope. This is one of the thousands of reasons perhaps millions why I respect religion. Or on historical level that they needed stories to explain certain phenomenon’s. But I hope we are past that point now and we are looking forward!
I’m 85% sure there isn’t a higher power but I believe there are other kinds of materials, physics and other scientific elements that haven’t been discovered that might come close to the term “God”, “Buddha”, …
But I wouldn’t be a millennial if I wasn’t going to say there should be a division of powers. Governments have to stop giving money to the churches and synagogues and in the other direction religions have to stop interfering with political issues. They should merely exist as an opinion giver and to shed a different light on these topics without provoking people to take action. That is just my opinion.

But I am drifting of. I am looking for a belief that doesn’t neglect the existence of a god nor believes in it. More like an observing belief. And I also I’m convinced that if there is some higher power or substance or whatever it is not here for us. Why would it? The entire human population is just one drop of water in the ocean. If the Earth formed at midnight and the present moment is the next midnight, 24 hours later, modern humans have been around since 11:59:59pm—1 second. So why would any god be here for us?
I fear death, but I don’t create a story to make me feel better. (life after death) I’m not a pessimist even though I have moments when I realize everything we do is just worthless but then again it is all about living in the moment. Enjoying life when you are here.
Also, I have an opinion on immigration. I know it is inevitable and we should work towards a harmonious multicultural world. It has been like this since the dawn of men, different tribes becoming bigger tribes, villages becoming cities, it already happened on a smaller scale and now it is just happening on a global scale and perhaps in a few hundred years we’ll have to mingle with the aliens. It’s just how things go and we shouldn’t follow extremists anymore, but their opinion always needs to be there it matters because people need this.
Then I have a bunch of theories about the fact that humans should work together as one race and start looking at the universe just like Colombus was looking at the ocean not knowing what is at the end of it. But I’m going to quit my lecture here.

So does anybody know where my opinions fit in most? Nihilism or atheism anyway? Help me out.

The big question is why are you looking for a belief?
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17-04-2017, 08:32 AM
RE: Believing
Seriously, if you're just looking for a belief, you might as well pick something that's cool:

Welcome to the home of the Jedi Church

I don't see how you could possibly take any of this seriously, you're literally choosing which story you want to believe.

If it's taken with a grain of salt, not taking it seriously with amusement and a hobbyist perspective, I suppose no harm no foul.......

Though Luke Skywalker just declared that the Jedi must end:




Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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17-04-2017, 06:36 PM
RE: Believing
(15-04-2017 07:35 AM)Observer123 Wrote:  I came to this medium to ask a question, more specifically: Which belief am I looking for?

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I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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