Beneficial mutations
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22-02-2015, 07:32 AM
Beneficial mutations
So arguing on YouTube (yes, I know, that's my problem right there) and someone brought up two things.

First is a claim that we have fossils for 90% of non-avian land vertebrate lines currently living and thus fossils are not rare.

The harder one is that medical studies show there has never been a beneficial human mutation that was not associated also with serious diseases/problems (such as the sickle cell anemia vs malaria resistance problem of HbS). Am I right in thinking there have been such mutations, but that there were always detrimental variants and that the majority of studies focus on the ones that don't work in order to understand genetic disease? Basically I think he's using a form of confirmation bias, but I'd like to be sure I'm not. Examples brought up (mainly by others) are the LPR5 mutation that increases bone density, the HbC mutation that protects against malaria without the sickle cell problem, the Apo-AI Milan change which handles cholesterol better, and the idea that most of the world is (apparently) lactose intolerant while those of us with the right genetics have no problems.

I'm also thinking all it would take is any single individual with one mutation that didn't suffer from severe complications as a result to destroy his claim, but is that correct thinking?
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22-02-2015, 07:38 AM
RE: Beneficial mutations
(22-02-2015 07:32 AM)OddGamer Wrote:  So arguing on YouTube (yes, I know, that's my problem right there) and someone brought up two things.

First is a claim that we have fossils for 90% of non-avian land vertebrate lines currently living and thus fossils are not rare.

Ask for a citation for that because I seriously doubt that it is true.

Quote: The harder one is that medical studies show there has never been a beneficial human mutation that was not associated also with serious diseases/problems (such as the sickle cell anemia vs malaria resistance problem of HbS). Am I right in thinking there have been such mutations, but that there were always detrimental variants and that the majority of studies focus on the ones that don't work in order to understand genetic disease? Basically I think he's using a form of confirmation bias, but I'd like to be sure I'm not. Examples brought up (mainly by others) are the LPR5 mutation that increases bone density, the HbC mutation that protects against malaria without the sickle cell problem, the Apo-AI Milan change which handles cholesterol better, and the idea that most of the world is (apparently) lactose intolerant while those of us with the right genetics have no problems.

There are many. How about the mutation that confers immunity to bubonic plague and HIV?

Quote: I'm also thinking all it would take is any single individual with one mutation that didn't suffer from severe complications as a result to destroy his claim, but is that correct thinking?

His claim is bullshit. See above.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-02-2015, 07:59 AM
RE: Beneficial mutations
(22-02-2015 07:32 AM)OddGamer Wrote:  So arguing on YouTube (yes, I know, that's my problem right there) and someone brought up two things.

First is a claim that we have fossils for 90% of non-avian land vertebrate lines currently living and thus fossils are not rare.

The harder one is that medical studies show there has never been a beneficial human mutation that was not associated also with serious diseases/problems (such as the sickle cell anemia vs malaria resistance problem of HbS). Am I right in thinking there have been such mutations, but that there were always detrimental variants and that the majority of studies focus on the ones that don't work in order to understand genetic disease? Basically I think he's using a form of confirmation bias, but I'd like to be sure I'm not. Examples brought up (mainly by others) are the LPR5 mutation that increases bone density, the HbC mutation that protects against malaria without the sickle cell problem, the Apo-AI Milan change which handles cholesterol better, and the idea that most of the world is (apparently) lactose intolerant while those of us with the right genetics have no problems.

I'm also thinking all it would take is any single individual with one mutation that didn't suffer from severe complications as a result to destroy his claim, but is that correct thinking?

I don't think beneficial mutations are considered an individual phenomenon, so generally you aren't going to find someone like Wolverine in a human population, it would manifest as slightly longer and harder fingernails in a significant group of humans that slowly move in the direction of claws over many generations.

Which is kind of sad, because having Wolverine's powers when no-one else has them would be cool, not so much when thousands of others have your mutation.

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22-02-2015, 07:59 AM
RE: Beneficial mutations
(22-02-2015 07:32 AM)OddGamer Wrote:  So arguing on YouTube (yes, I know, that's my problem right there) and someone brought up two things.

First is a claim that we have fossils for 90% of non-avian land vertebrate lines currently living and thus fossils are not rare.

What point is this person trying to make?

There are places where you trip over fossils (Agate Fossil Beds come to mind, river beds in Southern Ohio, Burgess Shale formation in Canada http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/...mation.htm). Then there is the fact that we don’t know what we don’t know. Just how many species have we not found or will never find?

"Since humans started searching for dinosaur bones in 1824, it's estimated that we've found remnants from 29 percent of these types, mostly in the last 20 years (a jump largely attributable to increased manpower and discoveries in Argentina and China). If we keep at the current pace of new discovery, it's likely that we'll hit something like "peak dinosaur," with 50 percent of all dinosaur genera discovered, by 2037. Within the next 100 to 140 years, we will have found 90 percent.”
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_p...e_dry.html

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22-02-2015, 08:28 AM (This post was last modified: 22-02-2015 09:25 AM by Rahn127.)
RE: Beneficial mutations
Any mutation that doesn't kill us before we can reproduce could be seen as beneficial

Here is link to some examples of human mutations that have been beneficial.

http://bigthink.com/daylight-atheism/evo...-in-humans

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22-02-2015, 12:28 PM
RE: Beneficial mutations
Would pygmies not count as a mutation.

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22-02-2015, 02:12 PM
RE: Beneficial mutations
(22-02-2015 12:28 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Would pygmies not count as a mutation.

Your point? Consider

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22-02-2015, 02:27 PM
RE: Beneficial mutations
(22-02-2015 07:32 AM)OddGamer Wrote:  The harder one is that medical studies show there has never been a beneficial human mutation that was not associated also with serious diseases/problems

You already listed mutations in your OP that didn't contain any serious problems.

You've already disproved their claim.

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22-02-2015, 05:21 PM
RE: Beneficial mutations
(22-02-2015 02:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-02-2015 12:28 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Would pygmies not count as a mutation.

Your point? Consider

Would that not be a benificial mutation not associated with a disease thus disproving the youtuber.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

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22-02-2015, 05:30 PM
RE: Beneficial mutations
(22-02-2015 05:21 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
(22-02-2015 02:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your point? Consider

Would that not be a benificial mutation not associated with a disease thus disproving the youtuber.

How is it beneficial?

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