Benefits/Welfare.
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22-09-2012, 09:45 AM
RE: Benefits/Welfare.
I shouldnt be so childish as to end the convo with you muffs because you believe something different to me about people on benefits..... it isnt fair on my part and for that I apologise.

Sorry.

I would ask though why you think that a lot of people are exactly how the mainstream portrays them..... is it through your own experiences you have seen this or are you purely going off what the papers say..... Caus I know for a fact where I live the people who are labelled "longtime scroungers" pale in comparison to the huge amounts of people who genuinly seek work.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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22-09-2012, 03:18 PM
RE: Benefits/Welfare.
Personal experience.
Like I say, I've had experience dealing with welfare people. We use to be the only gas station in town that when you on welfare WINS (our welfare place) would send you down to us.
You get the odd guy in a suit every now and then or the odd younger person but by in large they were the worst people in the world to deal with. They were very much the moocher type and they new how to work the system. Like we would get these voucher things from WINS and often they'd say "Petrol and Vouchers" (opposed to just petrol), so say the amount was $80, we were to fill up their car to $80 worth and if say it was full at $60 we had to give them $20 in petrol vouchers. Well, they'd come in, get $10 petrol and $70 vouchers. They'd then take these vouchers and buy $70 worth of smokes. Not even exaggerating, I wish I was, this happened alll the time.
I got friends who worked at New World (large grouchy store) and they had similar experience. A friend of mine was telling me one time he had a lady come in and she asked for a pack of smokes but it put over the voucher amount so did she put the smokes back? nope, she put the nappies back. Nappies. She would rather smoke then provide basic needs for her baby.

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22-09-2012, 03:49 PM
RE: Benefits/Welfare.
(22-09-2012 04:47 AM)bemore Wrote:  Just thought id ask peoples opinions on benefits and welfare as ive been having some discussions with some friends of mine recently.

A couple of my friends are of the view that people who are on benefits are parasites that suck on societys tit.... that the reforms that the UK goverment are making are well within reasonable boundaries and long overdue.

One of my friends Martin said to me that if he was in charge he would stop benefits and make everybody get a job..... even though I reminded him that in the UK there is around 2.4 million people out of work and if he did that there wouldnt be enough jobs to go around Undecided

A few of my friends have never worked.... and they never will.... and this I am quite comfortable with.

If I was in charge of benefits then I would let people claim full entitlement for two years without question.... after that two years I would invite these people in and ask them if they are looking for work and if they wish they can continue claiming benefits forever IF they agree to work 10-20 hours a week doing something in their own local area, to better the community. This could be collecting rubbish off the street, cleaning graffiti, emptying bins etc etc..... because I dont believe that the goverments current proposals of making people work for nothing for corporations does anything for anybody except line the pockets of a few individuals.

I would get them to sign a legal document saying that if they dont turn up for "work" then they will forefeit their benefits for that week.

I think healthcare should be free forever...... I dont think you can really put a price on anybodys health or wellbeing.

I would also raise the minimum wage by at least £2 per hour to give more of an incentive for people who did want to work.

Just a few of my thoughts..... how would you peeps work the system????

I'd set unemployment benefit at the equivalent of working 40 hours a week at minimum wage. People would also have to work in the community to be eligible.

I'd tighten up on incapacity benefits. Some people really are taking the piss with that. There would be tests people have to pass in order to be eligible and I would also look at having people to work at reduced hours if possible and then using benefits to top them up to full time pay. I'm sure a lot of people on incapacity benefit could work 10-15 hours a week if they wanted to (or build a decking at the back of his house, go rally car racing, and have frequent golf weekends like one guy I know).

I'd introduce national service. All young people would have to do three years upon leaving education (possibly with some exceptions). That would free up a lot of jobs and get young people into the habit of working.

Healthcare would be free (including prescriptions and dental care), except on drugs that are too expensive to realistically afford. I would however charge £5 for a doctors appointment for 18-65's (though people would only pay once if they needed multiple appointments for the same problem), not so much for the money but to reduce waiting times because I think some people are waaaaaay to quick to book doctors appointments.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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22-09-2012, 06:07 PM
RE: Benefits/Welfare.
Hughsie Wrote:I'd set unemployment benefit at the equivalent of working 40 hours a week at minimum wage. People would also have to work in the community to be eligible.

Wait so are you saying you would give people £243.20 per week? instead of the £50 they currently receive?

Hughsie Wrote:I'd tighten up on incapacity benefits. Some people really are taking the piss with that. There would be tests people have to pass in order to be eligible and I would also look at having people to work at reduced hours if possible and then using benefits to top them up to full time pay. I'm sure a lot of people on incapacity benefit could work 10-15 hours a week if they wanted to (or build a decking at the back of his house, go rally car racing, and have frequent golf weekends like one guy I know).

That currently happens.

hughsie Wrote:I'd introduce national service. All young people would have to do three years upon leaving education (possibly with some exceptions). That would free up a lot of jobs and get young people into the habit of working.

I agree, but only for the people that suggest bringing back national service.

hughsie Wrote:Healthcare would be free (including prescriptions and dental care), except on drugs that are too expensive to realistically afford. I would however charge £5 for a doctors appointment for 18-65's (though people would only pay once if they needed multiple appointments for the same problem), not so much for the money but to reduce waiting times because I think some people are waaaaaay to quick to book doctors appointments.

I agree on Healthcare being free, theres no good excuse for it to be any other way.
I doubt A £5 charge would discourage the people who want a day off, it will discourage the people that need help but cant afford to spare £5 quid.

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22-09-2012, 06:17 PM
RE: Benefits/Welfare.
I also think National Service is a big no no..... I honestly dont see the benefits it would bring to people. I know you could put forward that people would learn a trade and a bit of discipline but not in the war machine No

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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23-09-2012, 10:01 AM
RE: Benefits/Welfare.
I think certain disabled people could also work..... but they need lots of support and help to find them the right position, and it MUST be the right position. I think this partly to help the economy but mostly for what going out and meeting new people and doing things, that sense of achievement and not another day wasted can do to help a persons state of mind.

The UK goverment are not interested in this though, they have ATOS doing the judgements on claimants and the way they word the questions is setting people up to fail. Yes a lot of people are appealing and about 50% are succeeding.... its just in the meantime they are put on the most basic and lowest rate of money and its a huge drop in money.

My friend has a degenerative lung condition even though he is the same age as me. He got his claim stopped even though he sometimes needs oxygen (through a mask obv, we all need oxygen lol) and is now addicted to opiates from prescriptions. Luckily he has his family to support him and he appealed, won and had his claim backdated.

A lot of people are not so lucky though Sad

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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23-09-2012, 08:37 PM
RE: Benefits/Welfare.
(22-09-2012 06:07 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  Wait so are you saying you would give people £243.20 per week? instead of the £50 they currently receive?

As I'd have them working in the community it's only fair that they get a wage for it. I'd have to deduct 20% off for income tax though. Plus, there wouldn't be any other benefits. People would literally get jobseekers and that would be it.

FSM_scot Wrote:That currently happens.

Not well enough.

FSM_scot Wrote:I agree, but only for the people that suggest bringing back national service.

I think national service is a great idea. I'd hate to have to do it but I hate paying taxes as well, doesn't mean I don't see why I have to. National service would open up going on a million jobs I would think whilst ensuring that no-one ends up leaving education and never starting work. I'd even consider sending people on long-term unemployment back on national service.

FSM_scot Wrote:I agree on Healthcare being free, theres no good excuse for it to be any other way.
I doubt A £5 charge would discourage the people who want a day off, it will discourage the people that need help but cant afford to spare £5 quid.

Too many people in this country go to their doctors every time they sneeze. People take it for granted too much. That's what I want to eliminate. I can't imagine that anyone would be unable to spare £5 if they had a medical issue.



I forgot, I'd also only give child benefits for the first two children.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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23-09-2012, 11:33 PM
RE: Benefits/Welfare.
(22-09-2012 04:47 AM)bemore Wrote:  Just thought id ask peoples opinions on benefits and welfare as ive been having some discussions with some friends of mine recently.

A couple of my friends are of the view that people who are on benefits are parasites that suck on societys tit.... that the reforms that the UK goverment are making are well within reasonable boundaries and long overdue.

One of my friends Martin said to me that if he was in charge he would stop benefits and make everybody get a job..... even though I reminded him that in the UK there is around 2.4 million people out of work and if he did that there wouldnt be enough jobs to go around Undecided

A few of my friends have never worked.... and they never will.... and this I am quite comfortable with.

If I was in charge of benefits then I would let people claim full entitlement for two years without question.... after that two years I would invite these people in and ask them if they are looking for work and if they wish they can continue claiming benefits forever IF they agree to work 10-20 hours a week doing something in their own local area, to better the community. This could be collecting rubbish off the street, cleaning graffiti, emptying bins etc etc..... because I dont believe that the goverments current proposals of making people work for nothing for corporations does anything for anybody except line the pockets of a few individuals.

I would get them to sign a legal document saying that if they dont turn up for "work" then they will forefeit their benefits for that week.

I think healthcare should be free forever...... I dont think you can really put a price on anybodys health or wellbeing.

I would also raise the minimum wage by at least £2 per hour to give more of an incentive for people who did want to work.

Just a few of my thoughts..... how would you peeps work the system????



I don't think any benefits should be had without full time work. Obviously there has to be some flexibility for exceptions to deal with temporary unemployment, going back to school to train for a new career, etc. The US welfare reforms in the 90s instituted much of this--limits on duration, work requirements, and such. A lot of people went to work and got off the dole because of these reforms. The basic reforms instituted lifetime limits and work requirements. The law has been weakened over time by the Dems, but even today the reforms do quite a lot to encourage work in order to receive benefits.

"A few of my friends have never worked.... and they never will.... and this I am quite comfortable with."

What? I say if that's their attitude, let them starve. If they don't care one lick about caring for themselves, then why should I? Lazy SOBs. The truly needy are ill served by such parasites on society.

I also would agree with the drug testing earmuffs suggested. If you don't want to submit to the drug test, you don't have to accept the benefits.

Why should something like health care, food assistance, housing assistance, and any other welfare program ever be considered a right? By making these 'rights' you are essentially saying that poor people have the right to take property from people who are not poor without having to do anything in exchange for these benefits. These things should never be rights, but rather should be privileges one earns by working.
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24-09-2012, 12:35 AM
RE: Benefits/Welfare.
(22-09-2012 05:06 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Raising minimum wage doesn't really do much in the long run (inflation and all) plus some times it can harm some small businesses.

Welfare is always an interesting topic, it deals with social issues. First it should be noted that there are people who do simply mooch off the system and don't do anything productive. But on the flip side is the single mom with two kids and part time job so...

So the problem then becomes the moochers.
I believe welfare is suppose to be a helping hand for those in need, not something to mooch off (that's what friends and family are for). So have it my way I would stop all payments (like lump sums that you currently get). I would then make a personalized experience. Someone is assigned to you, they then take a look at your financial position. The state then makes payments on your behalf for the basics (Mortgage, power, water, gas, internet). You then get food stamps in regard to your situation (so families would get more etc..). These food stamps can only be used for food and basics (shampoo etc..) and can't be used for smokes or alcohol. That's it, no money. Then as an incentive to getting people off the welfare system, the state offers an incentive to EMPLOYERS, the state will pay for half the wages of that employee for the first 4 weeks. This encourages employers to take a serious look and consideration of welfare people. The state will also supply the person with what they need for that job (so say you need a nice pair of shoes) to begin with. And as a last addition, drug tests. All welfare (unemployment mainly) recipients will be subject to drug tests at the request of welfare worker assigned to them (so they use their judgment as to who to drug test as to save on just simply "test everyone every X weeks"). And then if you fail you simply have your benefit cut.
You can also have additional things such as paying for children's school stuff. Actually that reminds of something being passed now. If your child's school attendance drops to a certain level then you have your benefit (the additional because you have that child) cut. I like that, so I'd do that too.

I think this way is far more of a helping caring hand then simply (here's $XXX, go away and come back next week). It'd be more cost effectively too simply because it would drastically reduce drug use (due to not having cash in hand to pay for it, making it harder to obtain). It'd get people in work faster.
It's overall just simply a better system then what a lot of countries have now.

Although your intentions are good I would think it would be just as bad as the current system as far as government waste is concerned. In order to micromanage everyone's financial lives like that you would need to hire a lot of government bureaucrats, who are not only expensive, but also inefficient, and easily corrupted
.

While there is no such thing as a perfect solution here, in my opinion the best thing would be to leave it to the private charities. Less government waste would equate to more money with people, then people who are wealthy will contribute to the good of their countrymen. This may sound insane to some of you but I see it all the time. I can say outside of maybe some terrible natural disasters or accidents...things outside of reasonable control I have never seen the poor starve. Yes things can be very trying, depressing, and difficult for the poor but it also drives more to attempt to better themselves. Of course if I lived in a poor country where starvation was commonplace, more government would almost certainly mean more starvation.

Think of it kind of like the Laws of Thermodynamics. I can have the government regulate welfare, but the best I can hope for is to break even if there is no corruption or waste. Except for there is always corruption and waste. I realize this analogy doesn't fit exactly, but it is the closest thing that came to mind, and yes this happens to private charities as well. The biggest difference between the too is the amount of inefficiency found in government oppose to private sector. Now you may tell me how stupid I am for not thinking of a less flawed analogy, and for being a heartless bastard ( I know how you statists think.) Cool

Now, earmuffs, if we could end he government out of the picture we would see much more volunteers to actually help them. Private charity's and volunteers providing a similar service to the one you described would be great. I would be more inclined to hop on board that train and I would even volunteer some time as a personal financial management instructor or something.

I well leave you with a quote from someone who was a better writer than myself.

Benjamin Franklin Wrote:I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.

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24-09-2012, 05:07 AM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2012 05:32 AM by bemore.)
RE: Benefits/Welfare.
(23-09-2012 11:33 PM)BryanS Wrote:  What? I say if that's their attitude, let them starve. If they don't care one lick about caring for themselves, then why should I? Lazy SOBs. The truly needy are ill served by such parasites on society.

What about your plan in times like this recession.... with high unemployment and dwindling growth.... even if everybody suddenly decided to get a job there wouldnt be enough to go around.

What would you do if you had a family and you got laid off from work.... you would simply accept this fact and watch your children starve.... I think your views on benefits may possibly change if you was in that situation.... then again probably not.

(23-09-2012 11:33 PM)BryanS Wrote:  I also would agree with the drug testing earmuffs suggested. If you don't want to submit to the drug test, you don't have to accept the benefits.

I honestly do not get this.... You are an individual.... you have sovereign rights to do what you want in life and as long as it isnt harming anybody else.... whos business is it what you put in your own body???

You have been listening to the propaganda machine put out by the goverment that tax payers have paid for since the 60s.... that ALL drugs are bad, that they are demonised and you are led to believe that all people who take drugs are all bad people, guess what??? Not all people who take drugs are bad. Alcohol is perfectly legal even though it is more addictive than soft drugs and has more deaths compared to anything else.

You need to be carefull with views like this in my eyes my friend... giving away your freedoms and your choice.

(23-09-2012 11:33 PM)BryanS Wrote:  Why should something like health care, food assistance, housing assistance, and any other welfare program ever be considered a right? By making these 'rights' you are essentially saying that poor people have the right to take property from people who are not poor without having to do anything in exchange for these benefits. These things should never be rights, but rather should be privileges one earns by working.

It should be made available because there is a dividing system of classes.... we have poor people and they are poor for a million and one different reason... it isnt somebodys fault that they may be born in an area where there are little or no opportunities... where education standards may be lacking..... where they are raised in unloving families and shown from birth that nobody gives a fuck about them.

Thats a horrible way of starting your life.... If you have had a good start like I have you should be gratefull.

You should look after the people who have no access to these things.

Gandhi said it right "Poverty is the worst form of violence"... if you cut off funding to poor people then they will freeze in winter, become malnurished through not having enough to eat, become depressed and feel let down because through no fault of their own that the system has turned there back on them and said "get a job" where like I said earlier there might not be enough jobs.... they will resent the system and you will have more desperate people doing whatever they can to survive which will probably mean stealing or commiting crime so through no fault of there own they will then go to prison and in there they will be fed and watered and have a higher standard of living than on the streets.... so more people wont care about the punishments.... at least in prison they get to eat.

Your entitled to your views.... I would never take that away from you.... but I do wonder about people some times Consider

EDIT: Im not aiming this at anybody but I think people can get very reactional when faced with such questions.... that people can see things in black and white and not even consider the shades of grey.... they sometimes dont consider the full implications of what their actions entail.

Some of my friends have the view that because they work.... so should everybody else. Problem with this is they are at work a huge majority of the time and they never really spend as much quality time with their kids as they could do because of work commitments or they are tired after work.... they try to supplement this by giving their childen money and buying them things when in reality time with your kids is priceless.

People who dont work can get to spend more time with their children.... Im not saying this is what happens with everybody.... but growing up I know what I wanted more.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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