Benefits/Welfare.
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24-09-2012, 05:35 AM
RE: Benefits/Welfare.
Seems like a passionate issue with you, bemore. Consider

I hafta go with Franklin on this one. I've been around like old Ben, and there ain't much good I can say about welfare. It encourages people to do fuck-all.

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24-09-2012, 05:41 AM
RE: Benefits/Welfare.
(24-09-2012 05:07 AM)bemore Wrote:  I honestly do not get this.... You are an individual.... you have sovereign rights to do what you want in life and as long as it isnt harming anybody else.... whos business is it what you put in your own body???

You have been listening to the propaganda machine put out by the goverment that tax payers have paid for since the 60s.... that ALL drugs are bad, that they are demonised and you are led to believe that all people who take drugs are all bad people, guess what??? Not all people who take drugs are bad. Alcohol is perfectly legal even though it is more addictive than soft drugs and has more deaths compared to anything else.

You need to be carefull with views like this in my eyes my friend... giving away your freedoms and your choice.

I think drugs should be legalised. I really do not understand why they are illegal. Like you said, it's up to people to decide what they do with their own bodies.

However, I agree with the drug testing. Whether I like it or not drugs are illegal, and purchasing them quite often funds organised crime. I don't think people should be given taxpayers money and be allowed to use it to fund crime.

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Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
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Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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24-09-2012, 05:53 AM
RE: Benefits/Welfare.
I will address this topic properly tomorrow. I have seen the first few posts and my quick comment is this: although the drug testing of people who receive state benefits/welfare is logical in a way, who will pay for those tests? Because they cost money, you know. So, for someone to get some money (or food stamps, or something similar) you would want to spend even more money? The money comes from tax payers, so the drug testing would also come from us, the tax payers. Think about this while I return tomorrow, but don't write too much, I will hate reading everything tomorrow.

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24-09-2012, 05:55 AM
RE: Benefits/Welfare.
I am very passionate about it HOC because in the UK people are getting trodden over.

The old systems need adapting... they need to evolve constantly and whilst I can see why poverty exists in third world countries.... I cant really fathom why people fawn over the goverment and poverty still exists in more modernised countries in the west.... yeah I know its not all black and white.... but it does make me wonder Consider

This may be skirting off subject a little but people mention about taxpayers money... the thing is yes people pay tax that goes into the system... but all goverments have to borrow and get in debt.... so the people who issue and regulate the currency... have to borrow money that they are in charge of??

Who the fuck are they lending off... where is all that money going.... caus it aint going on the people I dont think.

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24-09-2012, 06:16 AM
RE: Benefits/Welfare.
Some people are going to abuse the system. Whatever the system, there will always be people who make a living out of cheating their way through it. The problem with cracking down on them is that we often end up throwing the people who legitimately need social welfare under the bus. I have seen this happen to people close to me. Personally, I would prefer a few knackers mooch some extra cash for cigarettes than a genuinely disabled person get cut off due to stricter measures. It's not going to break our country any more than it's already broken.

I have been on welfare. When I was born my mother claimed child support for me. When my father finished his PhD he went on welfare until he could find a job. I'm probably going to be getting social assistance myself when I finish my PhD, just so I don't end up on the street while I'm searching for a job. I wouldn't count myself, or my father, or any of my family as lazy moochers. If society had ignored us when we needed help, we wouldn't be productive members of society today.

What I'm saying is, for every idiot mooching cigarettes off food stamps, there's at least one family like mine. The government doesn't only serve the rich, it serves every child, elderly, disabled, and even just down-on-their-luck individual. And these people need society's help more than others.

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24-09-2012, 06:43 AM
RE: Benefits/Welfare.
Quote:Although your intentions are good I would think it would be just as bad as the current system as far as government waste is concerned. In order to micromanage everyone's financial lives like that you would need to hire a lot of government bureaucrats, who are not only expensive, but also inefficient, and easily corrupted

Actually they already do it here and it's not as hard to implement as you might think.

30minutes per beneficiary, per month. That means 1 person could get through roughly 18-20 people per day (some people take longer, some less). Then you could have roughly 6 people in a small bank-like-setup building, that's roughly 100 people per day. 700 per week. 2,800 per month.
Then you simply adjust to population size, so small towns would have one place where as a city would have one per suburb or larger ones etc..

It's really not that hard and expensive to implement. Not to mention the money saved on decline in drug use, gain from educated children etc.. etc.. The decrease in time on welfare (saving money) etc..

Also, still waiting on why income tax is immoral, just thought I'd remind you.

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24-09-2012, 11:40 AM
RE: Benefits/Welfare.
(24-09-2012 06:43 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Although your intentions are good I would think it would be just as bad as the current system as far as government waste is concerned. In order to micromanage everyone's financial lives like that you would need to hire a lot of government bureaucrats, who are not only expensive, but also inefficient, and easily corrupted

Actually they already do it here and it's not as hard to implement as you might think.

30minutes per beneficiary, per month. That means 1 person could get through roughly 18-20 people per day (some people take longer, some less). Then you could have roughly 6 people in a small bank-like-setup building, that's roughly 100 people per day. 700 per week. 2,800 per month.
Then you simply adjust to population size, so small towns would have one place where as a city would have one per suburb or larger ones etc..

It's really not that hard and expensive to implement. Not to mention the money saved on decline in drug use, gain from educated children etc.. etc.. The decrease in time on welfare (saving money) etc..

Still think it would be more effective in the private sector.

earmuffs Wrote:Also, still waiting on why income tax is immoral, just thought I'd remind you.

Don't take my silence as a forfeit. I will get around to it soon enough. Not that it matters. You are not going to agree with me. Nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise. You have made up your mind on the issue, nothing I say will change your mind.

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24-09-2012, 12:16 PM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2012 02:43 PM by FSM_scot.)
RE: Benefits/Welfare.
(23-09-2012 08:37 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  As I'd have them working in the community it's only fair that they get a wage for it. I'd have to deduct 20% off for income tax though. Plus, there wouldn't be any other benefits. People would literally get jobseekers and that would be it.
Thats assuming that there is enough community jobs to go round, which i kind of doubt.

(23-09-2012 08:37 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Not well enough.
Just because a handful of people abuse the system and con their way onto disability, doesn't mean its not a rigorous testing process. Theres bound to be a handful of people that learn how to dupe the system. (edit. apparently i forgot to finish this reply when i first posted it Frusty )

(23-09-2012 08:37 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  I think national service is a great idea. I'd hate to have to do it but I hate paying taxes as well, doesn't mean I don't see why I have to. National service would open up going on a million jobs I would think whilst ensuring that no-one ends up leaving education and never starting work. I'd even consider sending people on long-term unemployment back on national service.

So instead of finding them real jobs we force them to join an organisation created for killing, Yeah that sounds like a great idea, lets make them sign their lives away for less than they earn in a real job. So you know its males your age that are the first to be forced into national service Job or not, Enjoy Hughsie Big Grin

(23-09-2012 08:37 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Too many people in this country go to their doctors every time they sneeze. People take it for granted too much. That's what I want to eliminate. I can't imagine that anyone would be unable to spare £5 if they had a medical issue.

I know far too many people that can't spare as little as £5. I know people that go days without eating, because their choice is shelter or food, Poverty is more widespread than you realise.

Doctors need to stop prescribing stuff like antibiotics for colds and the flu since it does nothing and costs money. I can't imagine a 5 minute appointment costs more than that.

(23-09-2012 08:37 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  I forgot, I'd also only give child benefits for the first two children.
Fair enough. The only problem with it is, what happens to the kids of larger family's that are already on the poverty line?

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24-09-2012, 02:29 PM
RE: Benefits/Welfare.
Personally, I'd have to say that anyone against welfare has been successfully duped by conspiracy; either that or it's a conspiracy they're in on.

I can really only speak for the US, but in the US, there are tons of reforms and fixes needed. It's like we have 99 problems, but I can almost guarantee you that a bitch ain't one. Our tax code needs reformed, Social Security needs reformed, our health car system, but specifically in regards to Medicare, needs (more) reform, our educational system, including in regards to job training, needs substantial reform, our infrastructure needs updated, we need regulatory reform, we need to make changes to our defense spending, and a lot of this goes toward what is the most important fix, which is long-term debt, deficit, stability, and economic security as a country.

If you are worried about the poor, worry about the poor and not disliking welfare. There are real problems that need solved in regards to poverty within the US, and also in regards to our current fiscal situation, but welfare really doesn't work into that equation. What we can do to fix the other problems I mentioned, will make doing anything to welfare relatively unnecessary. If anything, welfare would need expanded: it should be reformed to be more efficient and better serve it's purpose, but expanded overall.

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24-09-2012, 03:03 PM
RE: Benefits/Welfare.
(24-09-2012 12:16 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  Thats assuming that there is enough community jobs to go round, which i kind of doubt.

I would find jobs just to keep people from being paid to lounge around playing PS3.

FSM_scot Wrote:So instead of finding them real jobs we force them to join an organisation created for killing, Yeah that sounds like a great idea, lets make them sign their lives away for less than they earn in a real job. So you know its males your age that are the first to be forced into national service Job or not, Enjoy Hughsie Big Grin

It would free up all those real jobs for the middle aged unemployed. May also teach them some discipline. I know I'd be one of the first to go, and I'd hate it, but I'll grit my teeth and bear it if it's for the good of the country.

FSM_scot Wrote:I know far too many people that can't spare as little as £5. I know people that go days without eating, because their choice is shelter or food, Poverty is more widespread than you realise.

Most of the poverty in this country isn't poverty. Most of the people who claim to be living in poverty have big TV's and mobile phones. The problem in most cases is people class luxury items as essentials.

FSM_scot Wrote:Fair enough. The only problem with it is, what happens to the kids of larger family's that are already on the poverty line?

People would have to consider whether they could afford another child before they got pregnant, rather than having as many as they wanted and knowing the taxpayer will pay for them.

If people have more than two children and can't afford to give them a proper standard of living then their children will be taken off them.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
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Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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