Bernie Sanders: "When you're white, you don't know what it's like to be poor"
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11-03-2016, 01:13 AM
RE: Bernie Sanders: "When you're white, you don't know what it's like to be poor"
(10-03-2016 07:12 PM)yakherder Wrote:  We'll be involved in global conflicts either way. Regardless of what he thinks or claims to think, he'll change his tune once he has access to the same information as Hillary does. The question isn't whether or not we'll be involved, but the nature of involvement. Would he be for sending conventional ground troops like Bush, air strikes like everyone in the world, drones like Obama, surgical strikes by special ops like everyone in the world, proxy wars like other presidents, China, Russia, and Britain, etc. More than one way to skin a jihadi goat, depending on the desired level of exposure.

I don't really feel like getting into a debate on it, but it's not really necessary. Just sit back and watch Popcorn

Conflict is not the only way to achieve goals. The wise general wins without fighting, right?

It's good to have informational access, but that doesn't mean that wise action ensues. Presumably previous Presidents had better access to information than a former Secretary of State, yet we still had Vietnam and Iraq.

America has to pull back from the world and stop inflicting itself upon it. Simply because we have a self-image of Big Dog doesn't mean we have to bark and snap at every little rat that scurries the world over. We have plenty of economic heft we can manage in order to achieve policy aims without asking you to suit up and deploy.

Me, I don't want you to put your ass on the line for fear of some scrubs in Syria who've got problems driving a tank five miles, never mind launching any nukes or shattering the oil markets.

If I might paraphrase Maslow, when all you are is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
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11-03-2016, 08:05 AM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2016 08:18 AM by yakherder.)
RE: Bernie Sanders: "When you're white, you don't know what it's like to be poor"
(11-03-2016 01:13 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(10-03-2016 07:12 PM)yakherder Wrote:  We'll be involved in global conflicts either way. Regardless of what he thinks or claims to think, he'll change his tune once he has access to the same information as Hillary does. The question isn't whether or not we'll be involved, but the nature of involvement. Would he be for sending conventional ground troops like Bush, air strikes like everyone in the world, drones like Obama, surgical strikes by special ops like everyone in the world, proxy wars like other presidents, China, Russia, and Britain, etc. More than one way to skin a jihadi goat, depending on the desired level of exposure.

I don't really feel like getting into a debate on it, but it's not really necessary. Just sit back and watch Popcorn

Conflict is not the only way to achieve goals. The wise general wins without fighting, right?

It's good to have informational access, but that doesn't mean that wise action ensues. Presumably previous Presidents had better access to information than a former Secretary of State, yet we still had Vietnam and Iraq.

America has to pull back from the world and stop inflicting itself upon it. Simply because we have a self-image of Big Dog doesn't mean we have to bark and snap at every little rat that scurries the world over. We have plenty of economic heft we can manage in order to achieve policy aims without asking you to suit up and deploy.

Me, I don't want you to put your ass on the line for fear of some scrubs in Syria who've got problems driving a tank five miles, never mind launching any nukes or shattering the oil markets.

If I might paraphrase Maslow, when all you are is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

The US could vanish tomorrow and it wouldn't change a thing. Most of the wars we've been in, including Vietnam, as well as the 40 or so conflicts raging in the world right now, including Iraq, were underway before the US was even a little sperm swimming around in Britain's pants. Our own involvement with war against the Ottomans and/or its fractured remnants came at a time when most Americans had been previously against even creating a federally operated military, and in favor of simply remaining a neutral trade based nation. The Barbary Coast had other intentions, however.

At any rate, a world absent of perpetual conflict has about as much data to back up its practicality as heaven. But if you want to have faith and push for it despite tens of thousands of years of evidence showing its non existence, be my guest. Heck, I hope Bernie gets elected, or even some random peace loving Green Party candidate, just so I can take cynical pleasure in watching them get corrupted by reality.

Either way, don't let my safety be part of the equation. I want to be placed in harm's way. Anything that might provid a temporary reprieve from the pointless monotony of civilian life. And besides, that's my only path to Valhalla Sad

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11-03-2016, 12:33 PM
RE: Bernie Sanders: "When you're white, you don't know what it's like to be poor"
(10-03-2016 10:47 PM)Fireball Wrote:  My mother lived in a tiny town in the southwestern part of Minnesota as a child. She told me about taking a lunch to school where the contents of her sandwich was mustard, and nothing else. That "wanting to starve" you claim is a complete fallacy. There are situations where there isn't enough to eat, and they abound. She also told me about how the walls of the bedroom she shared with her sister had ice on them, because her dad had to go throw a log into the wood burning stove, but was too tired to do so. I endured many a cold, wet night as a child, because we were so poor that the gas had been turned off due to non-payment. Truth is, with the privation I suffered as a child, I am a living example of the robustness of the human being.

Sure, but if your mother's family was poor and hungry even if they didn't want to be, then we'd be forced to admit that there are factors in peoples' lives beyond their immediate control.

And from there it's just a short step to realising that equal treatment to unequal positions is no equality at all.

And from there we might just be bound by rudimentary human decency to help people when they're suffering due to factors beyond their control. Truly it is a slippery slope indeed.

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11-03-2016, 12:35 PM
RE: Bernie Sanders: "When you're white, you don't know what it's like to be poor"
(11-03-2016 08:05 AM)yakherder Wrote:  At any rate, a world absent of perpetual conflict has about as much data to back up its practicality as heaven. But if you want to have faith and push for it despite tens of thousands of years of evidence showing its non existence, be my guest.

You do know there's less conflict in the world now than at any previous time, right?

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11-03-2016, 01:02 PM
RE: Bernie Sanders: "When you're white, you don't know what it's like to be poor"
(11-03-2016 12:35 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(11-03-2016 08:05 AM)yakherder Wrote:  At any rate, a world absent of perpetual conflict has about as much data to back up its practicality as heaven. But if you want to have faith and push for it despite tens of thousands of years of evidence showing its non existence, be my guest.

You do know there's less conflict in the world now than at any previous time, right?

That relative stability is reliant on regional control by a select few powers and their allies, namely the US, Great Britain, France, and China. That control is kept in place by a previously unimaginable global intelligence network and the ability to crush local skirmishes with varying types of quick reaction forces and constant interference in the political affairs of small, developing, resource rich countries that carry the first world despite teetering on the edge of collapse. Back off or become complacent, and you'll see a power vacuum turn the world into chaos fairly quickly.

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11-03-2016, 01:03 PM
RE: Bernie Sanders: "When you're white, you don't know what it's like to be poor"
(11-03-2016 08:05 AM)yakherder Wrote:  The US could vanish tomorrow and it wouldn't change a thing. Most of the wars we've been in, including Vietnam, as well as the 40 or so conflicts raging in the world right now, including Iraq, were underway before the US was even a little sperm swimming around in Britain's pants. Our own involvement with war against the Ottomans and/or its fractured remnants came at a time when most Americans had been previously against even creating a federally operated military, and in favor of simply remaining a neutral trade based nation. The Barbary Coast had other intentions, however.

At any rate, a world absent of perpetual conflict has about as much data to back up its practicality as heaven. But if you want to have faith and push for it despite tens of thousands of years of evidence showing its non existence, be my guest. Heck, I hope Bernie gets elected, or even some random peace loving Green Party candidate, just so I can take cynical pleasure in watching them get corrupted by reality.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was saying that wars are only started by Americans. What I said is that I think America needs to stop inflicting itself upon the world, which is a different thing altogether.

Perhaps you could read what I write rather than what you project?

(11-03-2016 08:05 AM)yakherder Wrote:  I want to be placed in harm's way.

Suit yourself. Surely if you truly love it you could do it without my taxes being involved?
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11-03-2016, 01:12 PM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2016 01:18 PM by yakherder.)
RE: Bernie Sanders: "When you're white, you don't know what it's like to be poor"
(11-03-2016 01:03 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(11-03-2016 08:05 AM)yakherder Wrote:  The US could vanish tomorrow and it wouldn't change a thing. Most of the wars we've been in, including Vietnam, as well as the 40 or so conflicts raging in the world right now, including Iraq, were underway before the US was even a little sperm swimming around in Britain's pants. Our own involvement with war against the Ottomans and/or its fractured remnants came at a time when most Americans had been previously against even creating a federally operated military, and in favor of simply remaining a neutral trade based nation. The Barbary Coast had other intentions, however.

At any rate, a world absent of perpetual conflict has about as much data to back up its practicality as heaven. But if you want to have faith and push for it despite tens of thousands of years of evidence showing its non existence, be my guest. Heck, I hope Bernie gets elected, or even some random peace loving Green Party candidate, just so I can take cynical pleasure in watching them get corrupted by reality.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was saying that wars are only started by Americans. What I said is that I think America needs to stop inflicting itself upon the world, which is a different thing altogether.

Perhaps you could read what I write rather than what you project?

(11-03-2016 08:05 AM)yakherder Wrote:  I want to be placed in harm's way.

Suit yourself. Surely if you truly love it you could do it without my taxes being involved?

I'm cheaper than the air strikes and smart weapons that seem to be preferred. I'm also all for drastically cutting numbers in recognition of front lines supported by poorly trained masses being obsolete. The budget is much higher than it needs to be due largely to the inefficient way funding is managed.

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11-03-2016, 01:25 PM
RE: Bernie Sanders: "When you're white, you don't know what it's like to be poor"
He was talking about more than just poverty though, he was talking about criminal justice; black people, no matter what their economic situation, have to deal with the burden of a presumption of guilt, or at least heightened suspicion, in their interactions with police that white people, regardless of how much or how little they have, aren't as oppressed by.
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11-03-2016, 01:35 PM
RE: Bernie Sanders: "When you're white, you don't know what it's like to be poor"
(11-03-2016 01:03 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Perhaps you could read what I write rather than what you project?

I read what you wrote, but also had other responses in mind as I replied. Sorry for my laziness in regards to dividing up quotes and individually addressing different people.

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11-03-2016, 09:51 PM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2016 09:56 PM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Bernie Sanders: "When you're white, you don't know what it's like to be poor"
(11-03-2016 01:12 PM)yakherder Wrote:  I'm cheaper than the air strikes and smart weapons that seem to be preferred. I'm also all for drastically cutting numbers in recognition of front lines supported by poorly trained masses being obsolete. The budget is much higher than it needs to be due largely to the inefficient way funding is managed.

Nothing to say about the earlier misstatement of my point?

Hmm.

As for you being cheaper, I'm fine with spending money to keep you alive -- and that is essentially what we're doing when we build strike fighters to obviate the need for front lines in arty range, and so on. It's all good. Call me crazy, but I think you're worth more alive than dead, and I don't mind paying for life-support systems to help that end.

My point, which you seem to have missed, is that engaging in unnecessary conflict is silly. It throws the tens of thousands of dollars we've invested in your training away on conflicts which have no bearing on our national security, and in the cases that do bear on national security more often harm it than help it.

I don't care if you like or don't like killing. I prefer that you like it so that you won't incur further expenses upon returning by having PTSD. I don't care if you're a danger junkie, and it's not my job to finance your thrills.

As a practical matter, I'm talking about our country's national interests, and I think those are best served by a non-interventionist foreign policy. If that doesn't satisfy your urge for thrills, buy tickets to Magic Mountain and leave my tax dollars alone.

(11-03-2016 01:35 PM)yakherder Wrote:  
(11-03-2016 01:03 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Perhaps you could read what I write rather than what you project?

I read what you wrote, but also had other responses in mind as I replied. Sorry for my laziness in regards to dividing up quotes and individually addressing different people.

Forgive my difficulty in navigating the clutter.
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