Bernie in Trouble?
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08-07-2017, 08:01 PM
RE: Bernie in Trouble?
(08-07-2017 07:29 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  If you, as an individual, are so incapable of rational and reasonable political discourse that a person can not utter a single fucking sentence you disagree with without you vomiting abusive and caustic shit on them, while jamming a half dozen strawmen into their mouths as you did above, then you should probably remove yourself from the discourse because you are harmful to open discourse.

Oh dear, lately this would be covering 2/3rds of the people I encounter! Sadcryface

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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08-07-2017, 09:03 PM
RE: Bernie in Trouble?
(08-07-2017 08:01 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 07:29 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  If you, as an individual, are so incapable of rational and reasonable political discourse that a person can not utter a single fucking sentence you disagree with without you vomiting abusive and caustic shit on them, while jamming a half dozen strawmen into their mouths as you did above, then you should probably remove yourself from the discourse because you are harmful to open discourse.

Oh dear, lately this would be covering 2/3rds of the people I encounter! Sadcryface

Ya that's one of my points. This vile bigoted, irrational, hysteria is being normalised. It's becoming how we communicate now. People are not able to have a civilised and reasonable discussion anymore because the sides have been so demonised. Oh well...the left is a bunch of pinko fascistic commies who sit in back rooms wringing their hands over which liberty they are going to steal next and the right is a bunch of fucking morons who only care about rich people, hate the poor, and think Jesus favourite gun would be made in 'Merica.

This is fucking stupid. It's fucking stupid. People do not operate this way. The vast vast majority of people on both sides are good fucking people who just have different ideas on what will improve the country and make it a better place.

Why would you EVER reach out and have a debate or a reasonable discussion with anyone if you are convinced that every person who doesn't agree with you already is just evil, just Hitler reborn, just a waste of life who needs to shut up?

If you went into a church on a Sunday took to the pulpit and yelled out "YOU ARE ALL A BUNCH OF FUCKING IDIOTS! YOUR GODS NOT REAL JESUS IS A FUCKFACE! WHEN YOU SAY YOU LOVE GOD ALL I HEAR IS YOU WANT TO OWN SLAVES AND FUCK 9 YEAR OLDS!!!". If you did that you would be called a cunt, treated, like a cunt, and removed from the discourse by the rest of polite society.

Yet we allow this shit to go on unchecked in the political sphere. See that guy he votes Republican and thinks that maybe more governemnt is not a magic bullet that solves every societal problem and he .....IS A FUCKING MONSTER WHO WANTS TO WATCH POOR BLACK PEOPLE DIE IN THE STREETS!!! That guy over there is a lifelong Democrat and he believes that government has a moral responsability to take care of those of less fortunate conditions and he.....IS A FUCKING NAZI WHO WANTS ABORTIONS TO BE MANDATORY AND WANTS TO BE KING OF AMERICA AND SIT ON A THRONE MADE OF CONFISCATED GUNS!!!

Stop. Just stop. That shit is fucking stupid, it's caustic, and it's ruining the ability to even talk about ideas. If you can't talk to someone who disagrees with you without acting like an infant then remove yourself, sit down and shut up, and let the people who are grown up enough that they can actually accomplish something. You are in the way. Get outta of the fucking way.

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08-07-2017, 10:23 PM
RE: Bernie in Trouble?
(08-07-2017 09:03 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 08:01 PM)Dom Wrote:  Oh dear, lately this would be covering 2/3rds of the people I encounter! Sadcryface

Ya that's one of my points. This vile bigoted, irrational, hysteria is being normalised. It's becoming how we communicate now. People are not able to have a civilised and reasonable discussion anymore because the sides have been so demonised. Oh well...the left is a bunch of pinko fascistic commies who sit in back rooms wringing their hands over which liberty they are going to steal next and the right is a bunch of fucking morons who only care about rich people, hate the poor, and think Jesus favourite gun would be made in 'Merica.

This is fucking stupid. It's fucking stupid. People do not operate this way. The vast vast majority of people on both sides are good fucking people who just have different ideas on what will improve the country and make it a better place.

Why would you EVER reach out and have a debate or a reasonable discussion with anyone if you are convinced that every person who doesn't agree with you already is just evil, just Hitler reborn, just a waste of life who needs to shut up?

If you went into a church on a Sunday took to the pulpit and yelled out "YOU ARE ALL A BUNCH OF FUCKING IDIOTS! YOUR GODS NOT REAL JESUS IS A FUCKFACE! WHEN YOU SAY YOU LOVE GOD ALL I HEAR IS YOU WANT TO OWN SLAVES AND FUCK 9 YEAR OLDS!!!". If you did that you would be called a cunt, treated, like a cunt, and removed from the discourse by the rest of polite society.

Yet we allow this shit to go on unchecked in the political sphere. See that guy he votes Republican and thinks that maybe more governemnt is not a magic bullet that solves every societal problem and he .....IS A FUCKING MONSTER WHO WANTS TO WATCH POOR BLACK PEOPLE DIE IN THE STREETS!!! That guy over there is a lifelong Democrat and he believes that government has a moral responsability to take care of those of less fortunate conditions and he.....IS A FUCKING NAZI WHO WANTS ABORTIONS TO BE MANDATORY AND WANTS TO BE KING OF AMERICA AND SIT ON A THRONE MADE OF CONFISCATED GUNS!!!

Stop. Just stop. That shit is fucking stupid, it's caustic, and it's ruining the ability to even talk about ideas. If you can't talk to someone who disagrees with you without acting like an infant then remove yourself, sit down and shut up, and let the people who are grown up enough that they can actually accomplish something. You are in the way. Get outta of the fucking way.

Damn fucking straight. On both your posts.

Wish people would stop demonizing every idea that isn't the single narrow minded one they personally like. That's not how intellectual discourse works. University is supposed to exist to challenge your preconceptions, not to tell you what to think but to teach you how to think and how to challenge yourself. How to deal with difficult, even hurtful thoughts and confront your reality ya? So with all that how did we get to where we are?

I have a confession to make. I've made it clear I don't really like Trump, and that I think he's an idiot. Among other things. However, I don't hate Donald J Trump, or pretty much anyone else for that matter. Hate shuts down thought, it builds walls (no pun intended, though... there is kinda a funny pun in there). And if Trump has a good idea, even if it's by accident I don't see it as a betrayal or a crime for anyone to agree with it.

Would be nice if there were still grown up's in the world capable of controlling their emotions and understanding that at the end of the day,we're all people and we gotta learn to live with each other (At least until we discover intergalactic space travel).

Just my two cents worth. I'm really grateful to hear you say what you said Whiskey, I wish more people would stand up like that.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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09-07-2017, 01:25 AM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2017 01:39 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Bernie in Trouble?
(08-07-2017 10:23 PM)JesseB Wrote:  Wish people would stop demonizing every idea that isn't the single narrow minded one they personally like. That's not how intellectual discourse works.

For discourse to be intellectual both sides must present some level - if one side is "gays are bad, cause lawd says so" then you could only have intellectual monologue and other side sticking fingers in ears.

Also some ideas deserve nothing but scorn. I know that people have some rationale for taking stance x but that does not mean idea they support is something other but laughable. Truth may be in the middle most of the time (not sure if I believe this) but sometimes one side is just wrong - take abortion debate. Why should anti-choice crowd be taken seriously? Superstitions they believe may prohibit abortion (except not really looking from historical perspective) but superstition is just that. They may do what they think space daddy want but that's all.

Edit: If one know that birth is more dangerous for women than abortion and yet still oppose it then there isn't much left to say.

Quote:I have a confession to make. I've made it clear I don't really like Trump, and that I think he's an idiot. Among other things. However, I don't hate Donald J Trump, or pretty much anyone else for that matter. Hate shuts down thought, it builds walls (no pun intended, though... there is kinda a funny pun in there).

I think I can reserve my hate for Polish neo-nazis. Being neo-nazi in county that lost so many people to German aggression is just inconceivable to me. People who ascribe to this idea... well I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.

Quote:And if Trump has a good idea, even if it's by accident I don't see it as a betrayal or a crime for anyone to agree with it.

It's sensible stance. Recently right in Poland managed to legalize medical marijuana (but not growing it in Poland) and I can easily praise them for it. But one good deed does not erase all idiocy that they were part to.


To make a side note: blame isn't shared equally - back there, don't know about USA - left squandered trust people had in it, sucked up to clergy and wasn't really left but right is just destructive with it's excluding people from community, worldview tainted with nationalism and delusion about Poland being something more than shitty country which should be careful in choosing alliances.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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09-07-2017, 02:41 AM
RE: Bernie in Trouble?
(09-07-2017 01:25 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 10:23 PM)JesseB Wrote:  Wish people would stop demonizing every idea that isn't the single narrow minded one they personally like. That's not how intellectual discourse works.

For discourse to be intellectual both sides must present some level - if one side is "gays are bad, cause lawd says so" then you could only have intellectual monologue and other side sticking fingers in ears.

Also some ideas deserve nothing but scorn. I know that people have some rationale for taking stance x but that does not mean idea they support is something other but laughable. Truth may be in the middle most of the time (not sure if I believe this) but sometimes one side is just wrong - take abortion debate. Why should anti-choice crowd be taken seriously? Superstitions they believe may prohibit abortion (except not really looking from historical perspective) but superstition is just that. They may do what they think space daddy want but that's all.

Edit: If one know that birth is more dangerous for women than abortion and yet still oppose it then there isn't much left to say.

Quote:I have a confession to make. I've made it clear I don't really like Trump, and that I think he's an idiot. Among other things. However, I don't hate Donald J Trump, or pretty much anyone else for that matter. Hate shuts down thought, it builds walls (no pun intended, though... there is kinda a funny pun in there).

I think I can reserve my hate for Polish neo-nazis. Being neo-nazi in county that lost so many people to German aggression is just inconceivable to me. People who ascribe to this idea... well I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.

Quote:And if Trump has a good idea, even if it's by accident I don't see it as a betrayal or a crime for anyone to agree with it.

It's sensible stance. Recently right in Poland managed to legalize medical marijuana (but not growing it in Poland) and I can easily praise them for it. But one good deed does not erase all idiocy that they were part to.


To make a side note: blame isn't shared equally - back there, don't know about USA - left squandered trust people had in it, sucked up to clergy and wasn't really left but right is just destructive with it's excluding people from community, worldview tainted with nationalism and delusion about Poland being something more than shitty country which should be careful in choosing alliances.

(warning: Over use of the word literally below)

Not joking I have literally seen my mother stick her fingers in her ears and hum loudly. Literally just to avoid hearing demonstrable scientific facts.

So I do get what you're saying..... Literally (lol)

(hopefully over use of the word literally will help the message sink in better. Kidding folks lol, just good fun)

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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09-07-2017, 07:15 AM
RE: Bernie in Trouble?
(09-07-2017 01:25 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  For discourse to be intellectual both sides must present some level - if one side is "gays are bad, cause lawd says so" then you could only have intellectual monologue and other side sticking fingers in ears.

Also some ideas deserve nothing but scorn.
I know that people have some rationale for taking stance x but that does not mean idea they support is something other but laughable. Truth may be in the middle most of the time (not sure if I believe this) but sometimes one side is just wrong - take abortion debate. Why should anti-choice crowd be taken seriously? Superstitions they believe may prohibit abortion (except not really looking from historical perspective) but superstition is just that. They may do what they think space daddy want but that's all.

I want to agree wiff ya Szuchow but I hit a snag on your abortion issue example: "Why should anti-choice crowd be taken seriously? "

I find that your anti-abortionists example nicely demonstrates why your; fast to shout & shut-down with scorn before inserting fingers in ears, is evident. My perception from your above position is that you believe the abortion debate is stupid because it's rooted in following a nonexistent & vaporous judge's rules.

That is true, to an extent as I agree, but the issue does extend beyond that parameter. There are those that believe taking anothers' life is wrong (at any level of development) and not because they may go to hell or wherever!
No God guilt chit needed here, they just believe purposely stopping a beating heart as wrong.

You shut the discussion down too early and this seriously held niche of philosophy is blindfolded to all levels of reasoning and evaluation.

Idiots deserve their chance to prove they are.
...and with that said, I'll thank you in advance! Big Grin

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09-07-2017, 07:29 AM
RE: Bernie in Trouble?
(09-07-2017 07:15 AM)BackSlider Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 01:25 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  For discourse to be intellectual both sides must present some level - if one side is "gays are bad, cause lawd says so" then you could only have intellectual monologue and other side sticking fingers in ears.

Also some ideas deserve nothing but scorn.
I know that people have some rationale for taking stance x but that does not mean idea they support is something other but laughable. Truth may be in the middle most of the time (not sure if I believe this) but sometimes one side is just wrong - take abortion debate. Why should anti-choice crowd be taken seriously? Superstitions they believe may prohibit abortion (except not really looking from historical perspective) but superstition is just that. They may do what they think space daddy want but that's all.

I want to agree wiff ya Szuchow but I hit a snag on your abortion issue example: "Why should anti-choice crowd be taken seriously? "

Never I heard anti-choice argument that wouldn't be some crypto-christian shit.

Also consider the unquoted by you part of the post about dangers of birth and abortion. What right have people to force women to endanger themselves? None and it's not up for discussion. You don't get to decide if other person should risk her life. Simple as that.

Quote:I find that your anti-abortionists example nicely demonstrates why your; fast to shout & shut-down with scorn before inserting fingers in ears, is evident. My perception from your above position is that you believe the abortion debate is stupid because it's rooted in following a nonexistent & vaporous judge's rules.

It's stupid and show authoritarian tendencies. Abortion is no murder no matter how loud pro-death (see risk rates for birth and abortion) crowd scream it.

Even apart from women right to choose which is more than good argument in itself we have issue of "rights" of something that isn't born and can yet live outside of mother body and rights of actual human being. Those do not compare.

Quote:That is true, to an extent as I agree, but the issue does extend beyond that parameter. There are those that believe taking anothers' life is wrong (at any level of development) and not because they may go to hell or wherever!
No God guilt chit needed here, they just believe purposely stopping a beating heart as wrong.

They're free to believe such and not choosing abortion. Can't see reason for their belief being relevant to choices others make.

Quote:You shut the discussion down too early and this seriously held niche of philosophy is blindfolded to all levels of reasoning and evaluation.

I'm not interested in discussing with people believing that they can force their taboos onto others.

There is fundamental difference between pro-death crowd and pro-choice people - pro-death ones want to make abortion illegal, that is rob everyone of choice. Pro-choice people want abortion to be legal not mandatory, therefore allowing people to choose. This fundamental difference is enough to convince me that members of pro-death crowd aren't worth discussing with.

Quote:Idiots deserve their chance to prove they are.

Idiots deserve nothing but scorn as long as they cling to idiotic positions.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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