Best DLC`s and Expantion Packs for Games
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02-02-2014, 12:11 PM
RE: Best DLC`s and Expantion Packs for Games
(02-02-2014 11:55 AM)DLJ Wrote:  From none of the above posts can I ascertain the meaning of "DLC".

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downloadable content

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02-02-2014, 12:51 PM
RE: Best DLC`s and Expantion Packs for Games
(02-02-2014 11:55 AM)DLJ Wrote:  From none of the above posts can I ascertain the meaning of "DLC".

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DLJ-cide.
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03-02-2014, 01:59 AM
RE: Best DLC`s and Expantion Packs for Games
(02-02-2014 10:07 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(02-02-2014 10:03 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  That`s hearfire not Dawnguard.
My bad. It's "Hearthfire", not "hearfire", though. Tongue

In any case, it goes to show that a.) people are going to pay money for anything and b.) that Bethesda consists of a bunch of money-grubbing sacks of shit.

(02-02-2014 10:03 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  And I didn`t buy any Skyrim DLC`s.

In the case of Skyrim I didn`t buy the game on release, but waited a year to buy the legendery edition for the same price with all the dlcs. thereby saving 50 euros.
I didn't buy it at all; fuck Bethesda and their lack of integrity.



Really? When it comes to paid DLC, Bethesda is one of the best example out there. Their stuff, with the possible exception of Hearthfire and Oblivion's Horse Armor, is all on par with expansion packs. But even if something like Hearthfire existed earlier as a free mod on PC, how does that help the console players? It doesn't.

Look at all of their DLC that they developed for Fallout 3, and both the Dawnguard and Dragonborn packs for Skyrim. Look at the DLC they published for New Vegas (some of my favorite ever). Now compare this to Capcom charging you for alternate costumes in their fighting games, content that is already on the disc that you bought? Compare this to micro-transactions that EA puts in all of their shit, up to and including Dead Space 3. Compare this to Activision charging you $15 for a single map in Call of Duty.

There are money-grubbing sacks of shit out there, but at least with Bethesda you get your money's worth.

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03-02-2014, 02:16 AM
RE: Best DLC`s and Expantion Packs for Games
(03-02-2014 01:59 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Really? When it comes to paid DLC, Bethesda is one of the best example out there. Their stuff, with the possible exception of Hearthfire and Oblivion's Horse Armor, is all on par with expansion packs. But even if something like Hearthfire existed earlier as a free mod on PC, how does that help the console players? It doesn't.
No, no, no, no, no. What I'm saying is that the honest thing to do would have been to release Hearthfire free of charge. I'm fine with paying money for DLCs that enhance the story significantly (e.g. Dawnguard and Dragonborn), but it's absolutely mind-boggling to me that they have the audacity to charge money for something that should have been in the game to begin with.

(03-02-2014 01:59 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Look at all of their DLC that they developed for Fallout 3, and both the Dawnguard and Dragonborn packs for Skyrim. Look at the DLC they published for New Vegas (some of my favorite ever). Now compare this to Capcom charging you for alternate costumes in their fighting games, content that is already on the disc that you bought? Compare this to micro-transactions that EA puts in all of their shit, up to and including Dead Space 3. Compare this to Activision charging you $15 for a single map in Call of Duty.

There are money-grubbing sacks of shit out there, but at least with Bethesda you get your money's worth.
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03-02-2014, 03:34 AM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2014 03:41 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Best DLC`s and Expantion Packs for Games
(03-02-2014 02:16 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 01:59 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Really? When it comes to paid DLC, Bethesda is one of the best example out there. Their stuff, with the possible exception of Hearthfire and Oblivion's Horse Armor, is all on par with expansion packs. But even if something like Hearthfire existed earlier as a free mod on PC, how does that help the console players? It doesn't.
No, no, no, no, no. What I'm saying is that the honest thing to do would have been to release Hearthfire free of charge. I'm fine with paying money for DLCs that enhance the story significantly (e.g. Dawnguard and Dragonborn), but it's absolutely mind-boggling to me that they have the audacity to charge money for something that should have been in the game to begin with.

There's your problem. The content was not in the game at launch, regardless of whether or not you think it should have been there. If you wanted the additional content, you paid for it. If you're on PC you can easily use mods. If you're on a console, they're your only option. Their developers worked to create that content, they paid to have it certified and hosted on the consoles and Steam, they deserve to make some money for it. If you don't like it, then speak with your wallet and don't buy it. But don't vilify them because of your own assumptions.

The larger expansion pack DLC's, Dawnguard and Dragonborn were both $20 at launch, the Hearthfire DLC was $5. You would have a leg to stand on if they had charged $20 for Hearthfire, but they simply didn't. Maybe that's not worth $5 for you, but apparently there were enough people playing on console who thought it was worth their money. Also on PC they released the Hi-Resolution Texture Pack as a FREE DLC available through Steam. Give Bethesda a break Vosur.


(03-02-2014 02:16 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 01:59 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Look at all of their DLC that they developed for Fallout 3, and both the Dawnguard and Dragonborn packs for Skyrim. Look at the DLC they published for New Vegas (some of my favorite ever). Now compare this to Capcom charging you for alternate costumes in their fighting games, content that is already on the disc that you bought? Compare this to micro-transactions that EA puts in all of their shit, up to and including Dead Space 3. Compare this to Activision charging you $15 for a single map in Call of Duty.

There are money-grubbing sacks of shit out there, but at least with Bethesda you get your money's worth.
Yes, the murderer is not as bad as the serial killer, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to condemn him as well. Dodgy


Hyperbole is hyperbolic. It is DLC, and unlike a lot of DLC, they're not simply charging you for palette swaps. Their DLC adds new content and represents the very best trends of what can and (I think) should be done with DLC. So it's not free, but if that is you're be-all-end-all of determining what is and is not good DLC for you, then your options will be severely limited outside of CD Project RED.

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03-02-2014, 05:38 AM
RE: Best DLC`s and Expantion Packs for Games
(03-02-2014 03:34 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  There's your problem. The content was not in the game at launch, regardless of whether or not you think it should have been there. If you wanted the additional content, you paid for it.
But Hearthfire doesn't add any additional content; it merely gives you a tool that has a severe lack of features compared to the free Skyrim Creation Kit.

(03-02-2014 03:34 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If you're on PC you can easily use mods. If you're on a console, they're your only option.
Exactly. There is no reason why console players should pay for something that is free for PC users; it's an unfair practice at best.

(03-02-2014 03:34 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Their developers worked to create that content, they paid to have it certified and hosted on the consoles and Steam, they deserve to make some money for it.
No, other people created that content before they did. Do you think that Bethesda should be charging money for the thousands of bug fixes included in the Unofficial Skyrim Patch mod (which isn't available to console users, by the way)? How about texture mods created by fans? If anything, the guy who created that mod should be paid for it, but he wasn't.

(03-02-2014 03:34 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The larger expansion pack DLC's, Dawnguard and Dragonborn were both $20 at launch, the Hearthfire DLC was $5. You would have a leg to stand on if they had charged $20 for Hearthfire, but they simply didn't. Maybe that's not worth $5 for you, but apparently there were enough people playing on console who thought it was worth their money. Also on PC they released the Hi-Resolution Texture Pack as a FREE DLC available through Steam. Give Bethesda a break Vosur.
I think they deserve every bit of criticism they receive because they pulled the same shit with the Void Walker's Arsenal DLC in Dishonored and the Courier's Stash DLC in Fallout 3. Imagine paying money for four new amulets, four lore books and a couple hundred Septims in Skyrim; that's even more atrocious than some of the Capcom DLC.

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03-02-2014, 07:50 AM
RE: Best DLC`s and Expantion Packs for Games
(03-02-2014 05:38 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 03:34 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  There's your problem. The content was not in the game at launch, regardless of whether or not you think it should have been there. If you wanted the additional content, you paid for it.
But Hearthfire doesn't add any additional content; it merely gives you a tool that has a severe lack of features compared to the free Skyrim Creation Kit.


Bulshit, and you know it. House customization, where you actually get to build your house to a specific layout and not just buying furnishing (you can also make and and find new materials, adding new loot and a new mechanic for Smithing). The ability to adopt children, and the addition of new Houscarls and even pets. You could do all of this with the Kit sure, in fact Bethesda's developers did. They also made sure it was compatible, up to par with the rest of the game, and as an official add-on available to those on closed systems (i.e. consoles). The fact that the consoles are closed systems is a choice of their manufactures, and cannot be used against Bethesda; it's not their choice that they can't open the console version of Skyrim to the mod community.

Even with a PC you can still use a mod instead of their DLC, but that's no reason that Bethesda shouldn't charge people for their work.

Just because they put out the extra effort to release a Creation Kit, are they now not allowed to profit from their own DLC work?



(03-02-2014 05:38 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 03:34 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If you're on PC you can easily use mods. If you're on a console, they're your only option.
Exactly. There is no reason why console players should pay for something that is free for PC users; it's an unfair practice at best.


It's a mod created by the developers. How many of the free mods available are entirely developed under the wings of Bethesda and released for free on the PC? Right, just the Hi-Res DLC, which they could not offer to the consoles as the DLC is made expressly to take advantage of the greater power and openness of the PC platform. You're comparing apples and oranges here Vosur. The PC also supports mouse and keyboard input and multiple resolutions, is Bethesda to also be vilified for not offering these PC options on the console? Is that also an unfair practice?



(03-02-2014 05:38 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 03:34 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Their developers worked to create that content, they paid to have it certified and hosted on the consoles and Steam, they deserve to make some money for it.
No, other people created that content before they did. Do you think that Bethesda should be charging money for the thousands of bug fixes included in the Unofficial Skyrim Patch mod (which isn't available to console users, by the way)? How about texture mods created by fans? If anything, the guy who created that mod should be paid for it, but he wasn't.


Did they steal his mod, slap their name on it, and release it as their own? I don't think so. How many fan-made Hi-Res texture packs are there? How many lighting mods? How many Dragonbone Weapons sets? Did they all steal all of their work from the previous guy and just slap their name on it? No. Multiple people can have the same idea, and have wildly different implementation with entirely original work on both sides.

If the mod creator had such a case of plagiarism or theft on his hands, I imagine we would have heard about long before now. It's entirely possible for this (the Hearthfire DLC) to have been planned from the very beginning and it was cut to make the 11-11-11 deadline, and that Bethesda had been working on it the entire time. So long as Bethesda has not stolen the mod's work, or did not adequately compensate the mod maker if they had, I fail to see the issue. They still debugged it, made sure it was 100% compatible with their game, and made it available through Microsoft and Sony on their consoles.

Why again shouldn't Bethesda get paid for their work?

If Bethesda buys up the Falskaar mod and releases it on consoles and PC without paying the mod maker, then I'll agree with you.

Bethesda has not co-opted the Unofficial Patches and/or released them on the consoles, so your hypothetical gets you nowhere. Bethesda's own developers are making their own fixes, many of which are mirrored by the PC-only Unofficial Patch. However the fan-made patch doesn't have pay Microsoft/Sony a few thousand dollars everytime they release a new version, nor do they have to ensure compatibility with the consoles so that they don't introduce new bugs. Mods are provided 'as is', user beware; paid DLC has to reach a higher standard. I wish Bethesda put more work into their own debugging (although Skyrim was the most bug-free initial release from them I had played go back to Morrowind); but the existence of the Unofficial Patch is shining example of the benefits of the PC platform and not an indictment of Bethesda's DLC efforts.



(03-02-2014 05:38 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 03:34 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The larger expansion pack DLC's, Dawnguard and Dragonborn were both $20 at launch, the Hearthfire DLC was $5. You would have a leg to stand on if they had charged $20 for Hearthfire, but they simply didn't. Maybe that's not worth $5 for you, but apparently there were enough people playing on console who thought it was worth their money. Also on PC they released the Hi-Resolution Texture Pack as a FREE DLC available through Steam. Give Bethesda a break Vosur.
I think they deserve every bit of criticism they receive because they pulled the same shit with the Void Walker's Arsenal DLC in Dishonored and the Courier's Stash DLC in Fallout 3. Imagine paying money for four new amulets, four lore books and a couple hundred Septims in Skyrim; that's even more atrocious than some of the Capcom DLC.


Those DLC packs were just a consolidation of all of the separate pre-order bonuses, which would be impossible to get otherwise unless you pre-ordered multiple copies of the game from various retailers. Some people are completionists, and game retailers love pre-order bonuses. It's the nature of the industry currently, and while I'm not a fan of the rampant pre-order culture, it was not created by Bethesda. It's a marketing tool that they are using, and they are giving people (like the aforementioned compulsive completionists) the option to get it all a bit later for a small fee. If you didn't care enough to pre-order, then you probable don't care enough to get the DLC; and that's fine. They're not good example of DLC, but I'd rather have the option to get all of the pre-order extras than to have them forever locked away.

If there was 4 separate pre-order bonuses for Skyrim and each included unique weapons and armor not available any other way? That's what the Courier's Stash in New Vegas (not FO3) had, the weapons and armors included were unique variants with modified game models and textures that are unavailable without the DLC. I'm sure many people would find that compelling enough to spend $5 on (or less on a Steam Sale, or wrapped up in a GOTY bundle later).

But once again, the story based DLC in Dishonored is some of the best DLC around. While Bethesda has had some miss-steps, they're still just about the best example of DLC-done-right the industry currently has.

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03-02-2014, 09:16 AM
RE: Best DLC`s and Expantion Packs for Games
(03-02-2014 07:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 05:38 AM)Vosur Wrote:  But Hearthfire doesn't add any additional content; it merely gives you a tool that has a severe lack of features compared to the free Skyrim Creation Kit.


Bulshit, and you know it. House customization, where you actually get to build your house to a specific layout and not just buying furnishing (you can also make and and find new materials, adding new loot and a new mechanic for Smithing). The ability to adopt children, and the addition of new Houscarls and even pets. You could do all of this with the Kit sure, in fact Bethesda's developers did. They also made sure it was compatible, up to par with the rest of the game, and as an official add-on available to those on closed systems (i.e. consoles). The fact that the consoles are closed systems is a choice of their manufactures, and cannot be used against Bethesda; it's not their choice that they can't open the console version of Skyrim to the mod community.

Even with a PC you can still use a mod instead of their DLC, but that's no reason that Bethesda shouldn't charge people for their work.

Just because they put out the extra effort to release a Creation Kit, are they now not allowed to profit from their own DLC work?



(03-02-2014 05:38 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Exactly. There is no reason why console players should pay for something that is free for PC users; it's an unfair practice at best.


It's a mod created by the developers. How many of the free mods available are entirely developed under the wings of Bethesda and released for free on the PC? Right, just the Hi-Res DLC, which they could not offer to the consoles as the DLC is made expressly to take advantage of the greater power and openness of the PC platform. You're comparing apples and oranges here Vosur. The PC also supports mouse and keyboard input and multiple resolutions, is Bethesda to also be vilified for not offering these PC options on the console? Is that also an unfair practice?



(03-02-2014 05:38 AM)Vosur Wrote:  No, other people created that content before they did. Do you think that Bethesda should be charging money for the thousands of bug fixes included in the Unofficial Skyrim Patch mod (which isn't available to console users, by the way)? How about texture mods created by fans? If anything, the guy who created that mod should be paid for it, but he wasn't.


Did they steal his mod, slap their name on it, and release it as their own? I don't think so. How many fan-made Hi-Res texture packs are there? How many lighting mods? How many Dragonbone Weapons sets? Did they all steal all of their work from the previous guy and just slap their name on it? No. Multiple people can have the same idea, and have wildly different implementation with entirely original work on both sides.

If the mod creator had such a case of plagiarism or theft on his hands, I imagine we would have heard about long before now. It's entirely possible for this (the Hearthfire DLC) to have been planned from the very beginning and it was cut to make the 11-11-11 deadline, and that Bethesda had been working on it the entire time. So long as Bethesda has not stolen the mod's work, or did not adequately compensate the mod maker if they had, I fail to see the issue. They still debugged it, made sure it was 100% compatible with their game, and made it available through Microsoft and Sony on their consoles.

Why again shouldn't Bethesda get paid for their work?

If Bethesda buys up the Falskaar mod and releases it on consoles and PC without paying the mod maker, then I'll agree with you.

Bethesda has not co-opted the Unofficial Patches and/or released them on the consoles, so your hypothetical gets you nowhere. Bethesda's own developers are making their own fixes, many of which are mirrored by the PC-only Unofficial Patch. However the fan-made patch doesn't have pay Microsoft/Sony a few thousand dollars everytime they release a new version, nor do they have to ensure compatibility with the consoles so that they don't introduce new bugs. Mods are provided 'as is', user beware; paid DLC has to reach a higher standard. I wish Bethesda put more work into their own debugging (although Skyrim was the most bug-free initial release from them I had played go back to Morrowind); but the existence of the Unofficial Patch is shining example of the benefits of the PC platform and not an indictment of Bethesda's DLC efforts.



(03-02-2014 05:38 AM)Vosur Wrote:  I think they deserve every bit of criticism they receive because they pulled the same shit with the Void Walker's Arsenal DLC in Dishonored and the Courier's Stash DLC in Fallout 3. Imagine paying money for four new amulets, four lore books and a couple hundred Septims in Skyrim; that's even more atrocious than some of the Capcom DLC.


Those DLC packs were just a consolidation of all of the separate pre-order bonuses, which would be impossible to get otherwise unless you pre-ordered multiple copies of the game from various retailers. Some people are completionists, and game retailers love pre-order bonuses. It's the nature of the industry currently, and while I'm not a fan of the rampant pre-order culture, it was not created by Bethesda. It's a marketing tool that they are using, and they are giving people (like the aforementioned compulsive completionists) the option to get it all a bit later for a small fee. If you didn't care enough to pre-order, then you probable don't care enough to get the DLC; and that's fine. They're not good example of DLC, but I'd rather have the option to get all of the pre-order extras than to have them forever locked away.

If there was 4 separate pre-order bonuses for Skyrim and each included unique weapons and armor not available any other way? That's what the Courier's Stash in New Vegas (not FO3) had, the weapons and armors included were unique variants with modified game models and textures that are unavailable without the DLC. I'm sure many people would find that compelling enough to spend $5 on (or less on a Steam Sale, or wrapped up in a GOTY bundle later).

But once again, the story based DLC in Dishonored is some of the best DLC around. While Bethesda has had some miss-steps, they're still just about the best example of DLC-done-right the industry currently has.
I appreciate you taking the time to write this long-ass response and concede that you made a lot of good points there, but I really have no interest in arguing with you about this topic back and forth for days. I hope you understand that. Tongue

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03-02-2014, 09:43 AM
RE: Best DLC`s and Expantion Packs for Games
I'm real happy for you, and I'm'a let you finish, but Yuri's Revenge for C&C Red Alert 2 is the best expansion of all time.

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03-02-2014, 01:31 PM
RE: Best DLC`s and Expantion Packs for Games
Borderlands 2, Tiny Tina's Assault on Dragon Keep!

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