Best argument for theism and supernatural
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24-11-2012, 11:44 AM
RE: Best argument for theism and supernatural
(24-11-2012 11:13 AM)Troll Wrote:  
(24-11-2012 09:51 AM)Chas Wrote:  There is no good argument for theism or the supernatural. Drinking Beverage

Then you re welcome to refute 2 arguments i explained:
1. Religion is good for me therefore i believe. Angel
2. Some people are unable to get enough information to understand the world around them. Therefore the best available explanation for them is "god did it". For example if you have no way of understanding evolution than "god made us" is quite reasonable claim. It matches with evidence (animals appear designed) and almost everyone thought like that before Darwin and this is not because everyone was stupid before 1859, they just didnt have enough information. Smartass
1. Not rational.
2. Not rational.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-11-2012, 12:22 PM
RE: Best argument for theism and supernatural
(24-11-2012 11:44 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-11-2012 11:13 AM)Troll Wrote:  Then you re welcome to refute 2 arguments i explained:
1. Religion is good for me therefore i believe. Angel
2. Some people are unable to get enough information to understand the world around them. Therefore the best available explanation for them is "god did it". For example if you have no way of understanding evolution than "god made us" is quite reasonable claim. It matches with evidence (animals appear designed) and almost everyone thought like that before Darwin and this is not because everyone was stupid before 1859, they just didnt have enough information. Smartass
1. Not rational.
2. Not rational.
1. Who cares about rationality? I care about food and sex. If you think you re caring about anything else, then you re lying. If you think you re caring about anything else and you think you re not lying, then you have no idea how your brains (subconsciously) work. Big Grin Do you think muslim fundamentalists are making suicide attacks because they believe they will became rational in the afterlife? Consider

2. Actually it s rational. It makes the best possible conclusion according to the available evidence. But available evidence is bad.

Trolls are holy race. Eduard Khil is our god.
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24-11-2012, 12:39 PM
RE: Best argument for theism and supernatural
(24-11-2012 12:22 PM)Troll Wrote:  1. Who cares about rationality? I care about food and sex. If you think you re caring about anything else, then you re lying. If you think you re caring about anything else and you think you re not lying, then you have no idea how your brains (subconsciously) work. Big Grin Do you think muslim fundamentalists are making suicide attacks because they believe they will became rational in the afterlife? Consider

2. Actually it s rational. It makes the best possible conclusion according to the available evidence. But available evidence is bad.
Well, you're on a site called the Thinking Atheist. That should answer your question about "who cares about rationality" to some extent.

And yes, I think many people DO care about rationality, but certainly not everyone. And I agree that it explains a lot of things.

It may have been rational in the past, but with advances in science and communication around the world, it's not rational to continue to believe these things in spite of evidence to the contrary. But it started out as an attempt to make sense of the world, certainly.
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24-11-2012, 01:33 PM
RE: Best argument for theism and supernatural
(24-11-2012 12:39 PM)amyb Wrote:  Well, you're on a site called the Thinking Atheist. That should answer your question about "who cares about rationality" to some extent.

And yes, I think many people DO care about rationality, but certainly not everyone. And I agree that it explains a lot of things.

It may have been rational in the past, but with advances in science and communication around the world, it's not rational to continue to believe these things in spite of evidence to the contrary. But it started out as an attempt to make sense of the world, certainly.
You know, my strategy to seek food and sex is slightly more sophisticated. Sometimes i m trying to train myself in rationality to get more educated to get better job to get more money to get more food and sex Tongue

Similarly there are many people who like rationality and science, but the reason why we like it is because it provide us technology and comfort (something like food and sex, of course health, warm home and things like that are also included here). Not because of some transcendental reasons.

That s right - formal modern science dont need god and god is not included in modern science as everyone knows (except creationists). But there are still many people who live in poor countries and they have bad education. Probably not accidentally these countries are much more religious.

Trolls are holy race. Eduard Khil is our god.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1PBptSDIh8
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24-11-2012, 03:26 PM
RE: Best argument for theism and supernatural
(24-11-2012 01:33 PM)Troll Wrote:  You know, my strategy to seek food and sex is slightly more sophisticated. Sometimes i m trying to train myself in rationality to get more educated to get better job to get more money to get more food and sex Tongue

Similarly there are many people who like rationality and science, but the reason why we like it is because it provide us technology and comfort (something like food and sex, of course health, warm home and things like that are also included here). Not because of some transcendental reasons.

That s right - formal modern science dont need god and god is not included in modern science as everyone knows (except creationists). But there are still many people who live in poor countries and they have bad education. Probably not accidentally these countries are much more religious.
I know plenty of irrational people that have a lot of degrees and make a fuckton of money. It's not mutually exclusive. I mean, there are a lot of doctors and [probably less] scientists who also believe in woo. While the amount of atheist/agnostic scientists seems to show a correlation with using scientific method/rational thinking and nonbelief, it's certainly not a direct cause and effect, or no one who took science classes would ever believe in woo, and that is not the case. Which brings us back to indoctrination, and what you said about people thinking "religion is good for me."

I don't think I've ever used critical thinking in an attempt to get laid. Certainly, science has been used to make our lives more comfortable and enjoyable though, and that's why people who believe in woo don't usually swear off all scientific things. Why trying to get laid by showing people you're not a moron is certainly a noble cause, I'd also include that some people really and truly do seek the truth in the world. And if science seems a better tool to use for seeking truth/reality, they gravitate toward that instead of religion. (Though I'd agree that in countries with less science and technology, people simply lack the tools to explore science, and I'd say they are also more likely to stay with their religion for social reasons.)

And I STILL can't understand the "I'll feel sad if there is no god; therefore, God exists" argument which many people really seem to use, perhaps because thinking makes their brain hurt.
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24-11-2012, 04:53 PM
RE: Best argument for theism and supernatural
It s not mutually exclusive because world is not that simple that one could explain it in few posts. There are other effect for example you can get million dollars at lotto. But i think on average being rational is beneficial. If you will persuade me i m wrong i will stop being rational.

Some people really and truly do seek the truth. They re called philosophers and theologians and everyone else think they re just wasting time. Big Grin But even philosophers and theologians usually believe there is some kind of benefit in finding the truth.

I think argument "I'll feel sad if there is no god; therefore, God exists" is an argument for religious life style, not an argument for existence of God. So "I'll feel sad if i dont believe in god; therefore i will believe in God" would be better. If being religious makes you feel better than being atheist, then why not?
To be fair, i m not so sure that religion makes people happier, i can see that it makes many people unusually frustrated. But if someone come to me and say that it makes him feel wonderful, i wouldnt feel the right person to say "no, it doesnt"-after all he probably knows himself better than i do.

Trolls are holy race. Eduard Khil is our god.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1PBptSDIh8
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24-11-2012, 08:31 PM
RE: Best argument for theism and supernatural
Well, yes, I won't argue that it can be financially beneficial if you have critical thinking skills.

Yes, probably the religious lifestyle.

Well, my beef is not with the people who simply like being religious; it's the people who tell me I'm the most horrible stupid kind of asshole for NOT being religious, as well as a lot of Christian apologists who use bas reasoning to try to "prove" to me that their god exists, and think this will convert me.

I've never tried to deconvert anyone. Ever. And people thinking they know what's best for me (namely, their religion) pisses me off, and bad attempts at logic piss me off (i.e., the bible says god exists, therefore god exists).

As I've said before, I think the main problem with the monotheisms is that they believe theirs is the only one true god and everyone else is a stupid delusional asshole going to burn for eternity or whatever. This does not make for very good public relations with people not of the same religion (even the same sect) as these people.

But as for the topic at hand, I'd say it all depends on what you value and how you think. If you want to believe in god whether there is evidence or not, you will see god everywhere. If you require evidence and are skeptical, you won't see god anywhere, or you'll at least probably be less certain about it. There is no good evidence for deities/supernatural unless you want to believe in them.
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26-11-2012, 12:01 AM
RE: Best argument for theism and supernatural
There are no good reasons to believe bullshit only bad ones.

Give me your best argument for believing that I am a multi-universe traveler who started the big bang by pressing the wrong button on one of my journeys.

By the way, "you're welcome"

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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26-11-2012, 11:05 AM
RE: Best argument for theism and supernatural
(26-11-2012 12:01 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Give me your best argument for believing that I am a multi-universe traveler who started the big bang by pressing the wrong button on one of my journeys.

If believing that would be beneficial for me, than i would believe it, no matter where the evidence is leading. And this is sufficient argument for me. I think you and many atheists are missing a very important fact about human nature: humans consciously, emotionally and subconsciously seek what benefits them, not what is true or rational. Do you prefer being rich, healthy, happy and wrong or poor, ill, sad and right?

Trolls are holy race. Eduard Khil is our god.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1PBptSDIh8
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26-11-2012, 11:08 AM
RE: Best argument for theism and supernatural
(26-11-2012 11:05 AM)Troll Wrote:  
(26-11-2012 12:01 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Give me your best argument for believing that I am a multi-universe traveler who started the big bang by pressing the wrong button on one of my journeys.

If believing that would be beneficial for me, than i would believe it, no matter where the evidence is leading. And this is sufficient argument for me. I think you and many atheists are missing a very important fact about human nature: humans consciously, emotionally and subconsciously seek what benefits them, not what is true or rational. Do you prefer being rich, healthy, happy and wrong or poor, ill, sad and right?
False dichotomy. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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