Best argument for theism and supernatural
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28-11-2012, 06:44 PM
RE: Best argument for theism and supernatural
(28-11-2012 01:32 PM)amyb Wrote:  Maybe it's a personal thing, then. I could never force myself to believe something just to make myself feel good, and I have doubts that theists could tell themselves "There is no god" until they believed it, without something to make them change their minds. They could start pretending to be atheists, just like I could start pretending to be a theist, but in the back of my mind, I still wouldn't believe in deities.


Just close yourself in monastery, away from normal people, and pray for 10 hours every day under supervision of religious fanatics. After few years you will be a happy christian or mad or both Big Grin

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28-11-2012, 06:58 PM
RE: Best argument for theism and supernatural
(28-11-2012 11:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  There is a big difference between a lie and an approximation. Newtonian mechanics is an approximation.
Newton laws are lies. Because they claim position of objects is deterministic, not random (as it actually is).
And almost everyone is still using them-because they work well enough, even though we know Newton was wrong. Again: who cares about truth...
But if you call that approximation, than theistic claims are also approximation. No big difference here.

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28-11-2012, 07:18 PM
RE: Best argument for theism and supernatural
(28-11-2012 06:44 PM)Troll Wrote:  
(28-11-2012 01:32 PM)amyb Wrote:  Maybe it's a personal thing, then. I could never force myself to believe something just to make myself feel good, and I have doubts that theists could tell themselves "There is no god" until they believed it, without something to make them change their minds. They could start pretending to be atheists, just like I could start pretending to be a theist, but in the back of my mind, I still wouldn't believe in deities.
Just close yourself in monastery, away from normal people, and pray for 10 hours every day under supervision of religious fanatics. After few years you will be a happy christian or mad or both Big Grin
Ha, perhaps so. But I was talking about regular people not doing anything drastic. But I do think that's why many people continue to believe: they are surrounded by believers, and would be outcasts if they stopped (also why some are gung ho about homeschooling their kids, so they can avoid outside indluence). So yes, that would mean believing makes them happier. But that's still just a justification to continue believing, not an argument for anyone to begin believing in the supernatural.
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28-11-2012, 07:45 PM
RE: Best argument for theism and supernatural
The best argument for theology, in terms of what causes the majority of converts, is an appeal to emotion.

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29-11-2012, 05:37 AM
RE: Best argument for theism and supernatural
(28-11-2012 07:45 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  The best argument for theology, in terms of what causes the majority of converts, is an appeal to emotion.
Probably true. But note that emotions are basically a mechanism made to seek benefits in life.

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29-11-2012, 11:36 AM
RE: Best argument for theism and supernatural
(26-11-2012 05:23 PM)Troll Wrote:  
(26-11-2012 03:45 PM)Impulse Wrote:  From this and your subsequent posts, it sounds like you're offering explanations for why people would believe in a god, not arguments for whether a god actually exists.
I think you dont need good reasons for existence of god to believe in god. If beliefs improve your life, that s sufficient justification. Because we really dont care about anything else than our lives.
People do not even care about god very much unless they think god will somehow influence their life (like he will reward them for certain behaviour after death).
Maybe I misunderstood the point of your post. I agree that many people believe in a god for flimsy reasons, but I thought you were looking for solid arguments in favor of theism. (Well, I believe there are none so, by "solid", I mean ones that at least appear to make some sense and take some thought to refute.)

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29-11-2012, 12:06 PM
RE: Best argument for theism and supernatural
(28-11-2012 06:44 PM)Troll Wrote:  Just close yourself in monastery, away from normal people, and pray for 10 hours every day under supervision of religious fanatics. After few years you will be a happy christian or mad or both Big Grin
That wouldn't make me believe because I wouldn't do it? Why? Because I don't believe in god so why would I do something so crazy?

I submit to you that your example here is flawed: Nobody would do this, ever, EVER, unless they already had some degree of belief before they decided to do it. Maybe just a bit, maybe just a subconscious belief or even a need for belief. Maybe they're struggling with their belief, even fighting it, resisting it, and maybe it's their hope that living in the monastery would cement the belief and squash their resistance. But without the initial belief fueling this radical life change, nobody would do it. Ever.

I further submit that any similar example you could give me would work out the same. Engaging in any drastic life change to force yourself to believe something requires you to already believe it enough to willingly engage in the drastic life change.

The closest real example I can think of might be when a cult recruits a new member. They find someone, proselytize, persuade, preach their beliefs to him, then eventually get him to sell his stuff and move to the cult's stockade somewhere out in the sticks. That new recruit may not fully believe, might not have drunk all the Koolaid yet, but he won't sell his stuff and move out there unless the recruiters managed to establish a little belief first. He may say "This is probably crap, but they have a few good ideas, let's try it for a month and see what it's like" and his month may turn into 10 years and he may end up a full-on, card-carrying cultist, even though initially he wasn't that way - but he still had enough belief to sell his stuff and move out there or he would never have done it.

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30-11-2012, 12:18 PM
RE: Best argument for theism and supernatural
(29-11-2012 11:36 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(26-11-2012 05:23 PM)Troll Wrote:  I think you dont need good reasons for existence of god to believe in god. If beliefs improve your life, that s sufficient justification. Because we really dont care about anything else than our lives.
People do not even care about god very much unless they think god will somehow influence their life (like he will reward them for certain behaviour after death).
Maybe I misunderstood the point of your post. I agree that many people believe in a god for flimsy reasons, but I thought you were looking for solid arguments in favor of theism. (Well, I believe there are none so, by "solid", I mean ones that at least appear to make some sense and take some thought to refute.)
There are 2 seperate things going on here:
1.you believe in god, because there are good reasons for existence of god
2. you believe in god, because beliving in god is good for you
I think number 2. can sometimes be a solid argument.

Trolls are holy race. Eduard Khil is our god.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1PBptSDIh8
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30-11-2012, 12:20 PM
RE: Best argument for theism and supernatural
(29-11-2012 12:06 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  That wouldn't make me believe because I wouldn't do it? Why? Because I don't believe in god so why would I do something so crazy?
Why not if you thought this will make your life better even though you dont believe in god?

Trolls are holy race. Eduard Khil is our god.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1PBptSDIh8
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01-12-2012, 08:31 AM
RE: Best argument for theism and supernatural
(28-11-2012 06:58 PM)Troll Wrote:  
(28-11-2012 11:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  There is a big difference between a lie and an approximation. Newtonian mechanics is an approximation.
Newton laws are lies. Because they claim position of objects is deterministic, not random (as it actually is).
And almost everyone is still using them-because they work well enough, even though we know Newton was wrong. Again: who cares about truth...
But if you call that approximation, than theistic claims are also approximation. No big difference here.


That doesn't even make sense.

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