Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
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26-08-2013, 05:17 AM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
(08-06-2013 06:28 PM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  Hosea 13:16
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."
These evil deeds were not done by God but by men. God allowed evil men to commit these evil things against Samaria because Samaria had rejected God and committed terrible atrocities such as sacrificing their children to Molech.
God cannot be blamed for all the terrible atrocities that men commit against each other, although he does promise to protect those who seek his name and who are righteous.
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26-08-2013, 05:29 AM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
(08-06-2013 06:47 PM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  This too
Deuteronomy 13:6-10
New International Version (NIV)
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Most States in the world throughout history have had the death penalty for treason and for serious crimes like murder. The crime committed here in Deut 13 is a worse crime than murder, because whereas murder destroys the physical body of a man, idolatry destroys his eternal soul.

Perhaps it is not PC to advocate the death penalty anymore but it is unreasonable to expect the political correctness of modern society to be applied to ancient civilizations. Furthermore if we judge ancient civilisations as being barbaric compared to ours then we obviously don't know much about abortion.
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26-08-2013, 05:32 AM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
(08-06-2013 09:55 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I enjoy the part where the dumb god doesn't know what to do about making a mate for Adam.

Genesis 2:18-20
The lord god said, 'It s not good for the man to be alone. I will make a suitable partner for the man. So the lord god formed out of the ground various wild animals and various birds of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; whatever he would call them would be it's name. The man gave names to all the cattle, all the birds of the air, and all the wild animals; but none *proved* to be a suitable partner for the man.

(I would like to have watched him try to screw a g.o.rilla.) Tongue
God showed the animals to Adam so that Adam would realise that he was not an animal like all of them and that he did not have a mate like they all had. He then learned a fundamental human principle. "It is not good for a man to be alone"
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26-08-2013, 05:42 AM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
(09-06-2013 12:34 PM)GoldenRatio Wrote:  I second "Murder in the Bible" from evilbible.com.

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night:

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
It is because we don't recognise how evil fornication is that we have a problem with this verse. In our "enlightened" society girls fornicate because they think it is expected of them. Fornication weakens marriage and the behaviour continues on into marriage as adultery. The damage to families and human society is incalculable. Again, we are arrogant to judge our societies as being better than this ancient society.

Nevertheless, Ancient Israel is not the model of human civilisation. In fact Christ came to deliver us from the bondage of the Old Covenant. He forgave the woman caught in adultery and refused to stone her. He instituted a new society which has been the backbone of western civilisation and all the fruits of that civilisation that we all enjoy today. That perfect society is the Church, the body of Christ. Let us emulate that society and participate in it, rather than pointing out the deficiencies of God's ancient nation.
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26-08-2013, 05:57 AM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
I want to see your response to my numbers 5 reference, excubitor Wink

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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27-08-2013, 05:19 AM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2013 05:26 AM by excubitor.)
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
(11-06-2013 05:10 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  Numbers 5:11-22 - God's first-hand command of men to abort their wives' foetuses if they suspect infidelity: May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries. ‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”'
So you agree that abortion is wrong do you? That is a good start.
There are a number of points to make here and I agree it is a difficult scripture.
However let's start with a reliable translation. Where did you get yours.
It should read from the Douahy Rheims
“the Lord make you a curse and an oath among your people by the Lord’s making your thigh [h]waste away and your abdomen swell; 22 and this water that brings a curse shall go into your [i]stomach, and make your abdomen swell and your thigh [j]waste away.”
In biblical times the thigh was a euphenism for the genitals not a baby in the womb.
http://taylormarshall.com/2008/10/testim...th-of.html

Unfortunately, because of the power of suggestion you have believed something that somebody wrongfully twisted without looking into it first.

Nobody aborts a baby here. It may be possible that the woman is pregnant when her abdomen swells and that she loses the baby. That is called a stillbirth. Women miscarriage regularly. This is an act of God who decides which foetus will live and which will die. Abortion is where man takes into his own hands a judgement which belongs only to God, who alone has the wisdom to make such judgements.

More likely what is being talked about here is a woman who God punishes for adultery by making her barren and unable to conceive. Fertility was a blessing for women in those days and barrenness was a reproach and a curse.

The concoction given to them by the priest has no abortive properties. It is holy water with a bit of dust in it. Therefore if the woman was made barren then this condition cannot be blamed upon the innocuous water the priest gave but rather on a miraculous intervention of God.

This scenario is as much a cure for man's jealousy as it is for judgement upon the woman.
Men, sadly, are very prone to irrational jealousies. This was probably a particular problem for men of this society who may have been inclined to take out their jealousy in violence against the woman and others. I daresay many of the women , knowing their innocence, would have welcomed this law of God because it provided a cure for the endless suspicion from their husbands.

So we see that the primary purpose of this law which at first seems horribly harsh, is actually to clear the innocent woman and protect her from the unreasonable jealousies of her husband.
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27-08-2013, 05:36 AM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2013 05:48 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
Umm... you want me to accept a translation from Latin to English over a direct translation such as the NIV... in the name of reliability? In any case you are mistaken. Even your version is clear enough in context:

Quote:[11] And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: [12] Speak to the children of Israel, and thou shalt say to them: The man whose wife shall have gone astray, and contemning her husband, [13] Shall have slept with another man, and her husband cannot discover it, but the adultery is secret, and cannot be proved by witnesses, because she was not found in the adultery: [14] If the spirit of jealousy stir up the husband against his wife, who either is defiled, or is charged with false suspicion, [15] He shall bring her to the priest, and shall offer an oblation for her, the tenth part of a measure of barley meal: he shall not pour oil thereon, nor put frankincense upon it: because it is a sacrifice of jealousy, and an oblation searching out adultery.

[14] The spirit of jealousy: This ordinance was designed to clear the innocent, and to prevent jealous husbands from doing mischief to their wives: as likewise to give all a horror of adultery, by punishing it in so remarkable a manner.

[16] The priest therefore shall offer it, and set it before the Lord. [17] And he shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and he shall cast a little earth of the pavement of the tabernacle into it. [18] And when the woman shall stand before the Lord, he shall uncover her head, and shall, put on her hands the sacrifice of remembrance, and the oblation of jealousy: and he himself shall hold the most bitter waters, whereon he hath heaped curses with execration. [19] And he shall adjure her, and shall say: If another man hath not slept with thee, and if thou be not defiled by forsaking thy husband' s bed, these most bitter waters, on which I have heaped curses, shall not hurt thee. [20] But if thou hast gone aside from thy husband, and art defiled, and hast lain with another man:

[21] These curses shall light upon thee: The Lord make thee a curse, and an example for all among his people: may he make thy thigh to rot, and may thy belly swell and burst asunder. [22] Let the cursed waters enter into thy belly, and may thy womb swell and thy thigh rot. And the woman shall answer, Amen, amen. [23] And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and shall wash them out with the most bitter waters, upon which he hath heaped the curses, [24] And he shall give them her to drink. And when she hath drunk them up, [25] The priest shall take from her hand the sacrifice of jealousy, and shall elevate it before the Lord, and shall put it upon the altar: yet so as first,

[26] To take a handful of the sacrifice of that which is offered, and burn it upon the altar: and so give the most bitter waters to the woman to drink. [27] And when she hath drunk them, if she be defiled, and having despised her husband be guilty of adultery, the malediction shall go through her, and her belly swelling, her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse, and an example to all the people. [28] But if she be not defiled, she shall not be hurt, and shall bear children. [29] This is the law of jealousy. If a woman hath gone aside from her husband, and be defiled, [30] And the husband stirred up by the spirit of jealousy bring her before the Lord, and the priest do to her according to all things that are here written:

[31] The husband shall be blameless, and she shall bear her iniquity.

Source: http://www.drbo.org/chapter/04005.htm

In fact, I'm not sure.. but I think this might be the only thing the Bible actually has to say directly about abortion... and here it's clearly pro-abortion.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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27-08-2013, 05:41 AM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
(11-06-2013 07:08 PM)saki Wrote:  1 Corinthians 7

4. the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife.
Not sure how this can be perceived to be a bad thing.

Marriage is the sacrament which expresses Christs love for the church. He gave his body to be tortured and killed on the cross so that his bride the church could be saved.
Men go to war to protect their wives and that is a good thing. But many do not give their bodies to their wives in every day life, but instead masturbate and commit adultery. They cruelly withhold their affections and bodies from their wives and spend themselves in selfish lust and pursuit of distractions and worldly pleasures.

A Godly man however understands that his wife and himself are one flesh. So to yield up his body to his wife actually blesses himself and her together. He looks after her interests and nurtures her.

To study the sacrament of marriage in the church we see how uplifting and meaningful the relationship between man and woman can be and how it can give us insights into how God loves the church and gave himself for it.
Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Sadly, our modern marriages are often mere shadows of this noble sacrament and men suffer because of it as much as women, and by extension the whole of society suffers.
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27-08-2013, 07:49 AM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
(27-08-2013 05:36 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Umm... you want me to accept a translation from Latin to English over a direct translation such as the NIV... in the name of reliability? In any case you are mistaken. Even your version is clear enough in context:

Quote:[11] And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: [12] Speak to the children of Israel, and thou shalt say to them: The man whose wife shall have gone astray, and contemning her husband, [13] Shall have slept with another man, and her husband cannot discover it, but the adultery is secret, and cannot be proved by witnesses, because she was not found in the adultery: [14] If the spirit of jealousy stir up the husband against his wife, who either is defiled, or is charged with false suspicion, [15] He shall bring her to the priest, and shall offer an oblation for her, the tenth part of a measure of barley meal: he shall not pour oil thereon, nor put frankincense upon it: because it is a sacrifice of jealousy, and an oblation searching out adultery.

[14] The spirit of jealousy: This ordinance was designed to clear the innocent, and to prevent jealous husbands from doing mischief to their wives: as likewise to give all a horror of adultery, by punishing it in so remarkable a manner.

[16] The priest therefore shall offer it, and set it before the Lord. [17] And he shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and he shall cast a little earth of the pavement of the tabernacle into it. [18] And when the woman shall stand before the Lord, he shall uncover her head, and shall, put on her hands the sacrifice of remembrance, and the oblation of jealousy: and he himself shall hold the most bitter waters, whereon he hath heaped curses with execration. [19] And he shall adjure her, and shall say: If another man hath not slept with thee, and if thou be not defiled by forsaking thy husband' s bed, these most bitter waters, on which I have heaped curses, shall not hurt thee. [20] But if thou hast gone aside from thy husband, and art defiled, and hast lain with another man:

[21] These curses shall light upon thee: The Lord make thee a curse, and an example for all among his people: may he make thy thigh to rot, and may thy belly swell and burst asunder. [22] Let the cursed waters enter into thy belly, and may thy womb swell and thy thigh rot. And the woman shall answer, Amen, amen. [23] And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and shall wash them out with the most bitter waters, upon which he hath heaped the curses, [24] And he shall give them her to drink. And when she hath drunk them up, [25] The priest shall take from her hand the sacrifice of jealousy, and shall elevate it before the Lord, and shall put it upon the altar: yet so as first,

[26] To take a handful of the sacrifice of that which is offered, and burn it upon the altar: and so give the most bitter waters to the woman to drink. [27] And when she hath drunk them, if she be defiled, and having despised her husband be guilty of adultery, the malediction shall go through her, and her belly swelling, her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse, and an example to all the people. [28] But if she be not defiled, she shall not be hurt, and shall bear children. [29] This is the law of jealousy. If a woman hath gone aside from her husband, and be defiled, [30] And the husband stirred up by the spirit of jealousy bring her before the Lord, and the priest do to her according to all things that are here written:

[31] The husband shall be blameless, and she shall bear her iniquity.

Source: http://www.drbo.org/chapter/04005.htm

In fact, I'm not sure.. but I think this might be the only thing the Bible actually has to say directly about abortion... and here it's clearly pro-abortion.
Ridiculous.
I deny that miscarriage is the same thing as abortion as every clear thinker can appreciate.
I reject that the NIV is correct in translating a rotting thigh as a miscarrying womb. the NIV is unreliable at best, corrupt is probably a better description for it.
I concede that the rotting thigh could include the death of the embryo, but not necessarily so. It means in particular the shrivelling of the reproductive organs.
The NIV emphasises miscarriage whereas the douahy rheims correctly emphasises sterility.
And if you don't like Latin the Hebrew Yarek is the same. A euphenism for reproductive organs.
The New literary criticism and the Hebrew Bible
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27-08-2013, 08:42 AM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
(26-08-2013 05:03 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(08-06-2013 01:26 PM)Logisch Wrote:  Are we going for ludicrous and offensive? There's plenty of them in the bible, it's full of them!

"Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse." (1 Peter 2:18)
Terrible translation. Stick to the Douahy Rheims bible please
[18] Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. (Willfully contrary, intractable, difficult to manage)

As employees we should obey our employer not just if he is a good employer but even if he is opposed to you and is difficult to deal with. If we only obeyed good and gentle employers then we would have an excuse not to obey most employers.

Why that translation? It was translated from the Latin Vulgate which many scholars find is one of the worst translations.

Quote:
(08-06-2013 01:26 PM)Logisch Wrote:  "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet." (1 Timothy 2:12)
Not politically correct but hardly evil. A hundred years ago you probably would have agreed with this verse.

You are agreeing, then, that our ethics do not come from the Bible, but from society.

Quote:
(08-06-2013 01:26 PM)Logisch Wrote:  “Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)
Perhaps you need to read about the captivity of Jerusalem and the cruelty of the Babylonians inflicted upon the Jews. You might then understand the depth of passion with which the psalmist writes. It is easy to have thoughts of love and peace while you sit in your lounge chair drinking beer, but when you are wronged and a great evil is done upon you, you might find that you have some ugly thoughts of revenge.

The Bible is not sugar coated. It describes the innermost thoughts of men. Righteous and unrighteous alike.
Notwithstanding, the judgements of God against the wicked are utterly horrendous. Their punishment is severe. Best not to get on the wrong side of the living God, terrible in his wrath.

Best not to worship such a horrendous, terrible god.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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