Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
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27-08-2013, 04:57 PM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
If God's true intent and meaning can only be found in specific translations, why would he be so careless? If he created the whole universe just for us, then wrote a book (through dictation) chronicling his actions and giving guidance on how to live, then this would surely be a book of great importance. Yet apologists are always claiming that you need the correct translation in order to understand what was originally written.

I'm not disputing that different translations result in varying interpretations, simply that an all knowing god would probably be part of the process to ensure perfect accuracy. Thus, rendering every version to have duplicate meaning of the original text. Since we don't see this, he is either unable to intervene (not omnipotent), has chosen not to (being deceptive by allowing incongruities), or never existed (the book was written by and translated by fallible humans).

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28-08-2013, 01:23 AM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
(27-08-2013 08:42 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(26-08-2013 05:03 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Terrible translation. Stick to the Douahy Rheims bible please
[18] Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. (Willfully contrary, intractable, difficult to manage)

As employees we should obey our employer not just if he is a good employer but even if he is opposed to you and is difficult to deal with. If we only obeyed good and gentle employers then we would have an excuse not to obey most employers.

Why that translation? It was translated from the Latin Vulgate which many scholars find is one of the worst translations.
Which scholars? What is their authority. I cite the authority of the church in the Council of Trent.
"Moreover, this sacred and holy Synod,—considering that no small utility may accrue to the Church of God, if it be made known which out of all the Latin editions, now in circulation, of the sacred books, is to be held as authentic,—ordains and declares, that the said old and vulgate edition, which, by the lengthened usage of so many years, has been approved of in the Church, be, in public lectures, disputations, sermons and expositions, held as authentic; and that no one is to dare, or presume to reject it under any pretext whatever."

Of which other translation were words so praiseworthy and of such great authority uttered? The latin vulgate endured for a thousand years. from 400AD until 1530. It is still used as the authoritative text where it matters, in the Congregation for the Doctrine of the faith at the Holy See in Rome.

The translations of which you speak, the authority is Rupert Murdoch who is more interested in protecting his copyright than in keeping the word of God pure. In that publishing world, the bible is made redundant in less that 25 years with TNIV published with endless editions and revisions. God does not change, from yesterday today until forever, so you can expect that his true word also will not change. That is why I stick with the Latin Vulgate and douahy rheims which is a faithful translation of the Latin Vulgate.

(27-08-2013 08:42 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(26-08-2013 05:03 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Not politically correct but hardly evil. A hundred years ago you probably would have agreed with this verse.

You are agreeing, then, that our ethics do not come from the Bible, but from society.
Originally the ethics of our society came from the scriptures, but with the mass apostasy from the faith, influx of eastern religions, atheism and sexual permissiveness our ethics and morals have degraded and our christian heritage is being lost.

(27-08-2013 08:42 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(26-08-2013 05:03 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Perhaps you need to read about the captivity of Jerusalem and the cruelty of the Babylonians inflicted upon the Jews. You might then understand the depth of passion with which the psalmist writes. It is easy to have thoughts of love and peace while you sit in your lounge chair drinking beer, but when you are wronged and a great evil is done upon you, you might find that you have some ugly thoughts of revenge.

The Bible is not sugar coated. It describes the innermost thoughts of men. Righteous and unrighteous alike.
Notwithstanding, the judgements of God against the wicked are utterly horrendous. Their punishment is severe. Best not to get on the wrong side of the living God, terrible in his wrath.

Best not to worship such a horrendous, terrible god.
If you think God is horrendous and terrible then all the more reason to worship him otherwise you will suffer his judgements. God is horrendous and terrible to sinners when he comes to punish and judge in his wrath. There is no escaping or denying this. But those who worship him in spirit and in truth find him to be pure Love, unfathomable unending love, with mercy, patience. Ready to forgive and very slow to come to anger.
To such as us, we seek his return to receive eternal life and a place in his glorious kingdom.

All you have to look forward to is the ominous day of your death when you will face the prospect of his terrors and judgements. Don't you fear the agonies of hell for your sins? Many evade this fear by denying that God exists. But in their hearts they are troubled and as the day of their death approaches their fear and anxiety grows.

What an awful way to live.
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28-08-2013, 04:08 PM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
@excubitor I have five questions for you.
1.Are you a creationist (If you're one of them, you're a YEC or an OEC ?) ?
2.Are you a traditional Catholic ? (I suppose it because in your previous post you wrote "I cite the authority of the church in the Council of Trent" about the words of God).
3.Was you raised in a Christian Family ?
4.Do you believe that Exodus happened ? (My question is a little dumb because if I have reason you're a traditional catholic therefore you believe it).
5.Do you think that Isaiah 7:14 is a prophecy about the birth of Jesus Christ ?
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28-08-2013, 09:38 PM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
(28-08-2013 04:08 PM)viocjit Wrote:  @excubitor I have five questions for you.
1.Are you a creationist (If you're one of them, you're a YEC or an OEC ?) ?
2.Are you a traditional Catholic ? (I suppose it because in your previous post you wrote "I cite the authority of the church in the Council of Trent" about the words of God).
3.Was you raised in a Christian Family ?
4.Do you believe that Exodus happened ? (My question is a little dumb because if I have reason you're a traditional catholic therefore you believe it).
5.Do you think that Isaiah 7:14 is a prophecy about the birth of Jesus Christ ?
Yes to all except number 3. I converted from the protestant church about 3 years ago.
I am YEC
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29-08-2013, 03:25 PM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
(28-08-2013 09:38 PM)excubitor Wrote:  Yes to all except number 3. I converted from the protestant church about 3 years ago.
I am YEC

1.Like you're a YEC I have some questions for you.
A.Can you refute the next methods of dating ?
I.Dendrochronology
II.Isotope geochemistry
III.K-Ar dating
IV.Radiocarbon dating
V.Uranium-thorium dating

2.Why did you converted yourself to traditional Catholicism ?

3.Why do you think that Protestants are not Christians ? I suppose that this is because they consider that the Bible is the only authority , and that they don't consider the Church like an authority that you consider that they aren't Christians.

4.Can you refute the contents of the next documents who show that Exodus is only a myth ?
I.The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman published at Free press in 2001. (ISBN 978-0-684-86912-4).
II.Thierry Ragobert produced a documentary with the data from the book. (Some datas from this documentary are more recent than datas from the book). Look it and watch it. In the title of this doc there are "The Bible Unearthed" I can't remember of the other part of the title.
III.The Bible's buried secrets produced by Gary Glassman. (If you won't watch it you can read a transcription here.)

5.OK I suppose that you don't know Ancient Greek and Hebrew.
I.Hebrew text from the Westminster Leningrad Codex :
לָ֠כֵן יִתֵּ֨ן אֲדֹנָ֥י ה֛וּא לָכֶ֖ם אֹ֑ות הִנֵּ֣ה הָעַלְמָ֗ה הָרָה֙ וְיֹלֶ֣דֶת בֵּ֔ן וְקָרָ֥את שְׁמֹ֖ו עִמָּ֥נוּ אֵֽל׃
II.Greek text from the Septuagint : διὰ τοῦτο δώσει κύριος αὐτὸς ὑμῖν σημεῖον· ἰδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ ἕξει καὶ τέξεται υἱόν, καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Εμμανουηλ

For the Hebrew version the part in blue means "a young woman". But for the Greek version the part in blue is about a "virgin woman". This is an error of translation. Therefore when this prophecy is quoted in the next verses of the NT (Matthew 1:23 and Luke 1:35). We can suppose that the author(s) of these texts had only access to Greek version.

To conclude I think that we can't call that a prophecy.
I wait your answer.
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29-08-2013, 03:51 PM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
(28-08-2013 01:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  All you have to look forward to is the ominous day of your death when you will face the prospect of his terrors and judgements. Don't you fear the agonies of hell for your sins? Many evade this fear by denying that God exists. But in their hearts they are troubled and as the day of their death approaches their fear and anxiety grows.

What an awful way to live.
Is it really that hard to conceptualize the possibility that there are people in the world that genuinely don't believe in a god? I am about as afraid of God as I am of a zombie apocalypse; that is to say I don't believe in either and don't even consider the theoretical issues with either idea until I have someone putting forth an argument for them. And this isn't an awful way to live because I have other things to live for than the day of my death. I have (hopefully) around 100 years to experience what it is to be a human being (which, from my perspective, has nothing to do with any divine beings). My existence may be limited, but I can to terms with this in preschool.

Here's my advice: If you genuinely want to understand why we think the way we do and why we do the things we do, don't come in here thinking our world views have to conform to your views.
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29-08-2013, 10:41 PM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
(28-08-2013 09:38 PM)excubitor Wrote:  Yes to all except number 3. I converted from the protestant church about 3 years ago.
I am YEC

The kind of Catholic who directly contradicts Pius XII's statements and John Paul II's commentaries on them, and indeed denies the official catechism on the role of science and the nature of creation?

The Vatican Wrote:159 Faith and science: "Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth [Dei Filius 4: DS 3017]. Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. the humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are [GS 36 # 1].

The Vatican Wrote:283. The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers. With Solomon they can say: "It is he who gave me unerring knowledge of what exists, to know the structure of the world and the activity of the elements. . . for wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me [Wis 7: 17-22]."

Call yourself a Catholic if you like, but you're not a very good one.

After all,
Galileo Wrote:I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them.
The history of that relationship notwithstanding...
Rolleyes

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30-08-2013, 06:47 AM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
(29-08-2013 10:41 PM)cjlr Wrote:  <snip>
Call yourself a Catholic if you like, but you're not a very good one.
<snip>

He is a traditional catholic therefore he don't consider that those who follow Vatican II are catholics.

I think that it does exist three main branches in the catholicism. (This is my personal view , this is a simplification of the reality).

1.Traditional Catholic (rather a smaller minority).
2.Pro-Vatican II (difficult to say theirs numbers).
3.Cafetaria Catholicism (The majority of catholics).

My definition of Cafetaria Catholicism is the next :
If one of these statements about you is right you're one of them.
1.You are not against premarital sex.
2.You don't believe completely to Vatican II.
3.You are not against abortion.
4.You accept evolution like a fact and you don't believe in inteligence design. (The intelligence design is the official position of the church).
5.You think that homosexuality isn't bad.
6.You think that Papal infaillibility isn't true.
7.You avoid the churches.
8.You believe in universalism.
9.You are not OK with all religious ideas from the Vatican.
10.You have a behavior forbidden by the catechism.

All Catholics that I know practise cafetaria catholicism
My grand-father , my grand-mother (by ignorance) , some friends.
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30-08-2013, 07:50 AM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
(30-08-2013 06:47 AM)viocjit Wrote:  He is a traditional catholic therefore he don't consider that those who follow Vatican II are catholics.

I think that it does exist three main branches in the catholicism. (This is my personal view , this is a simplification of the reality).

1.Traditional Catholic (rather a smaller minority).
2.Pro-Vatican II (difficult to say theirs numbers).
3.Cafetaria Catholicism (The majority of catholics).

Yes; pick any particular doctrine and you'll find self-professed 'Catholics' who deny it. I've got plenty of cafeteria-believers in my own family...

Thing is, that can be a matter of self-identity, but it's not Catholicism. If you do not believe all of the doctrine of the Catholic Church, you are not a Catholic. Plenty of people are too uncomfortable or stubborn to admit that, but it's true nonetheless.

(30-08-2013 06:47 AM)viocjit Wrote:  My definition of Cafetaria Catholicism is the next :
If one of these statements about you is right you're one of them.
1.You are not against premarital sex.
2.You don't believe completely to Vatican II.
3.You are not against abortion.
4.You accept evolution like a fact and you don't believe in inteligence design. (The intelligence design is the official position of the church).
5.You think that homosexuality isn't bad.
6.You think that Papal infaillibility isn't true.
7.You avoid the churches.
8.You believe in universalism.
9.You are not OK with all religious ideas from the Vatican.
10.You have a behavior forbidden by the catechism.

All Catholics that I know practise cafetaria catholicism
My grand-father , my grand-mother (by ignorance) , some friends.

Well, yeah. Actually following all the rules is hard. So most people don't bother...

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30-08-2013, 08:15 PM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
This one isn't particularly absurd or horrible, but it is the Bible verse that got me really questioning religion (I stumbled upon it in the 4th grade after about a year of questions that I tried to ignore).

Gensis 6:3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.”

It reveals an innumerable amount of problems. If man may only live to be a hundred and twenty years old, why does the Bible mention those who live to be five hundred years old? And why were people able to live to five hundred years prior to that when the oldest person we know of with all of our medical advances is 122 and a half years old? Speaking of that, if God said people may only live to be one hundred and twenty years old, why do we have record of someone living longer than that? The Bible is supposed to be the word of God right, so everything should be fact, shouldn't it? So if the Bible was wrong, that means it's not the word of God. And if it's not the word of God, then everything it says might be false. And there might not be a God. Oh my goodness . . .

Basically my thought process in the fourth grade. That one Bible quote managed to truly shake my faith. Ironically, I stumbled across it at Bible camp.
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