Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
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31-08-2013, 07:52 PM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
please explain how any of what you have produced here is contrary to YEC. the church can never teach anything contrary to YEC because that is the traditional teaching of the church for most of the last 2000 and for over a thousand years of Jewish tradition prior to that. today we have a new scientific "establishment" which protects it's conventions with more fanaticism than the church ever did. it requires all the independent thinking that Galileo recommended to reject evolution and adopt YEC.I am convinced that there is no better example of faith working together with reason than my belief in YEC.
(29-08-2013 10:41 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(28-08-2013 09:38 PM)excubitor Wrote:  Yes to all except number 3. I converted from the protestant church about 3 years ago.
I am YEC

The kind of Catholic who directly contradicts Pius XII's statements and John Paul II's commentaries on them, and indeed denies the official catechism on the role of science and the nature of creation?

The Vatican Wrote:159 Faith and science: "Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth [Dei Filius 4: DS 3017]. Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. the humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are [GS 36 # 1].

The Vatican Wrote:283. The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers. With Solomon they can say: "It is he who gave me unerring knowledge of what exists, to know the structure of the world and the activity of the elements. . . for wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me [Wis 7: 17-22]."

Call yourself a Catholic if you like, but you're not a very good one.

After all,
Galileo Wrote:I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them.
The history of that relationship notwithstanding...
Rolleyes
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31-08-2013, 08:01 PM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
there are some traditional Catholics that reject Vatican 2 but not all. V2 is ambiguous in many places opening it up to modernist interpretations however if it is interpreted in the light of traditional teachings it is thoroughly orthodox. I regard V2 as a valid council of the church. at least two of the documents are dogmatic constitutions and are binding on all Catholics.
(30-08-2013 06:47 AM)viocjit Wrote:  
(29-08-2013 10:41 PM)cjlr Wrote:  <snip>
Call yourself a Catholic if you like, but you're not a very good one.
<snip>

He is a traditional catholic therefore he don't consider that those who follow Vatican II are catholics.

I think that it does exist three main branches in the catholicism. (This is my personal view , this is a simplification of the reality).

.Traditional Catholic (rather a smaller minority).
2.Pro-Vatican II (difficult to say theirs numbers).
3.Cafetaria Catholicism (The majority of catholics).

My definition of Cafetaria Catholicism is the next :
If one of these statements about you is right you're one of them.
1.You are not against premarital sex.
2.You don't believe completely to Vatican II.
3.You are not against abortion.
4.You accept evolution like a fact and you don't believe in inteligence design. (The intelligence design is the official position of the church).
5.You think that homosexuality isn't bad.
6.You think that Papal infaillibility isn't true.
7.You avoid the churches.
8.You believe in universalism.
9.You are not OK with all religious ideas from the Vatican.

10.You have a behavior forbidden by the catechism.

All Catholics that I know practise cafetaria catholicism
My grand-father , my grand-mother (by ignorance) , some friends.
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31-08-2013, 08:10 PM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
I really don't see what your problem with this is. have you had another look at this since 4th grade? the people lived long wicked lives prior to the flood which is why God sent the flood to purge the earth. at that time man's life span was reduced to 120 years
(30-08-2013 08:15 PM)southernbelle Wrote:  This one isn't particularly absurd or horrible, but it is the Bible verse that got me really questioning religion (I stumbled upon it in the 4th grade after about a year of questions that I tried to ignore).

Gensis 6:3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.”

It reveals an innumerable amount of problems. If man may only live to be a hundred and twenty years old, why does the Bible mention those who live to be five hundred years old? And why were people able to live to five hundred years prior to that when the oldest person we know of with all of our medical advances is 122 and a half years old? Speaking of that, if God said people may only live to be one hundred and twenty years old, why do we have record of someone living longer than that? The Bible is supposed to be the word of God right, so everything should be fact, shouldn't it? So if the Bible was wrong, that means it's not the word of God. And if it's not the word of God, then everything it says might be false. And there might not be a God. Oh my goodness . . .

Basically my thought process in the fourth grade. That one Bible quote managed to truly shake my faith. Ironically, I stumbled across it at Bible camp.
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31-08-2013, 08:38 PM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
(31-08-2013 08:10 PM)excubitor Wrote:  I really don't see what your problem with this is. have you had another look at this since 4th grade? the people lived long wicked lives prior to the flood which is why God sent the flood to purge the earth. at that time man's life span was reduced to 120 years
(30-08-2013 08:15 PM)southernbelle Wrote:  This one isn't particularly absurd or horrible, but it is the Bible verse that got me really questioning religion (I stumbled upon it in the 4th grade after about a year of questions that I tried to ignore).

Gensis 6:3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.”

It reveals an innumerable amount of problems. If man may only live to be a hundred and twenty years old, why does the Bible mention those who live to be five hundred years old? And why were people able to live to five hundred years prior to that when the oldest person we know of with all of our medical advances is 122 and a half years old? Speaking of that, if God said people may only live to be one hundred and twenty years old, why do we have record of someone living longer than that? The Bible is supposed to be the word of God right, so everything should be fact, shouldn't it? So if the Bible was wrong, that means it's not the word of God. And if it's not the word of God, then everything it says might be false. And there might not be a God. Oh my goodness . . .

Basically my thought process in the fourth grade. That one Bible quote managed to truly shake my faith. Ironically, I stumbled across it at Bible camp.

There was no flood.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-08-2013, 08:51 PM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
(31-08-2013 08:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(31-08-2013 08:10 PM)excubitor Wrote:  I really don't see what your problem with this is. have you had another look at this since 4th grade? the people lived long wicked lives prior to the flood which is why God sent the flood to purge the earth. at that time man's life span was reduced to 120 years

There was no flood.

I sometimes wonder how such delusional people get through life, simultaneously avowedly denying their superficial misunderstanding of modern science, and yet relying utterly on its results for every facet of their lives.

Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a thing.

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31-08-2013, 09:16 PM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
(31-08-2013 08:10 PM)excubitor Wrote:  I really don't see what your problem with this is. have you had another look at this since 4th grade? the people lived long wicked lives prior to the flood which is why God sent the flood to purge the earth. at that time man's life span was reduced to 120 years

Yes I have. Numerous times. This was something I always tried to explain whenever I was questioning faith. And let's say your point about the long lives prior to the supposed flood is true. If, for arguments sake, the Bible is 100% factual, why do we have record of people living past 120? It's something very simple, but once you can prove that one part of the Bible is inaccurate the entire of it being the Word of God is shattered.
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31-08-2013, 09:22 PM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
what record do we have of people living past 120 years after the flood?
(31-08-2013 09:16 PM)southernbelle Wrote:  
(31-08-2013 08:10 PM)excubitor Wrote:  I really don't see what your problem with this is. have you had another look at this since 4th grade? the people lived long wicked lives prior to the flood which is why God sent the flood to purge the earth. at that time man's life span was reduced to 120 years

Yes I have. Numerous times. This was something I always tried to explain whenever I was questioning faith. And let's say your point about the long lives prior to the supposed flood is true. If, for arguments sake, the Bible is 100% factual, why do we have record of people living past 120? It's something very simple, but once you can prove that one part of the Bible is inaccurate the entire of it being the Word of God is shattered.
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31-08-2013, 09:34 PM (This post was last modified: 31-08-2013 10:00 PM by cjlr.)
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
(31-08-2013 09:22 PM)excubitor Wrote:  what record do we have of people living past 120 years after the flood?

Genesis 11:12-13: Arphaxad lives 438 years (born to Shem, Noah's son, two years after the flood).
His descendents (the next seven generations in that chapter alone) also live longer than 120 years.

Genesis 23:1: Sarah dies at the age of 127. This is the oldest age for a woman mentioned in the Bible.

Genesis 25:7: Abraham dies at the age of 175.

Genesis 25:17: Ishmael dies at the age of 137.

Genesis 35:28: Isaac dies at the age of 180.

Genesis 47:28: Jacob dies at the age of 147.

That's from my skimming through of Genesis. It may not be exhaustive, and I didn't even consider other books (there might be a couple in Exodus).

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31-08-2013, 09:40 PM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
to argue that we must accept everything in modern science because some aspects of science benefit is an erroneous construct. there is a higher authority than science. it is scripture and the teachings of the church throughout all the ages. nobody really understands science which relates to origins. I have seen many cases where scientific findings which threaten the conventional teachings of science have been decried by "greater' scientists who disparage the techniques and findings of the scientist even to the point of destroying reputations and denying grants. the so called peer review system is nothing short of scientific censorship where the cleaners are brought in to protect the status quo. modern science is an industry like any other and the establishment is not there to advance creative thinking. it is there to protect its market share. endless theory must be piled on to endless theory to prop up the creaking house of cards of modern evolution geology and cosmology.it is truly astonishing the nonsense that people accept in order to displace god. to say that dolphins evolved from a small hippo to renter the water lose its legs grow fins and move is breathing apparatus to a hole in its back is truly absurd and take absurdity to breathtaking levels
(31-08-2013 08:51 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(31-08-2013 08:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  There was no flood.

I sometimes wonder how such delusional people get through life, simultaneously avowedly denying their superficial misunderstanding of modern science, and yet relying utterly on its results for every facet of their lives.

Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a thing.
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31-08-2013, 09:41 PM
RE: Best bible verse to quote to Christian.
(31-08-2013 09:22 PM)excubitor Wrote:  what record do we have of people living past 120 years after the flood?
(31-08-2013 09:16 PM)southernbelle Wrote:  Yes I have. Numerous times. This was something I always tried to explain whenever I was questioning faith. And let's say your point about the long lives prior to the supposed flood is true. If, for arguments sake, the Bible is 100% factual, why do we have record of people living past 120? It's something very simple, but once you can prove that one part of the Bible is inaccurate the entire of it being the Word of God is shattered.

Two best examples are this Bolivian man. Or how about Jeanne Calment who currently holds the record, though once the Bolivian man's records are verified, he'll take the title. There's also this list of people, many of whom lived after Jesus supposedly did (though none of these people are included in modern records of oldest people because they lived before we had the modern standards of age verification). So there might not be many, but there are still at least people who lived past 120. It only takes one counterexample to prove a statement false
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