Best of from FB Apologetics group
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28-01-2015, 10:01 AM (This post was last modified: 28-01-2015 10:12 AM by unfogged.)
RE: Best of from FB Apologetics group
(28-01-2015 09:42 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Him: If your decisions are just chemicals in your brain, you aren't making decisions. You're just chemicals. Nothing is right or wrong.

If your decisions are just obeying commands dictated by some other entity then you aren't making decisions. You're just a puppet. Nothing is right or wrong.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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28-01-2015, 10:16 AM
RE: Best of from FB Apologetics group
Rob, I fear for your sanity.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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28-01-2015, 11:48 AM
RE: Best of from FB Apologetics group
(27-01-2015 08:08 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Oh boy! Time for some "you can't be moral without God" bullshit!

OP: <Posts picture with quote from Jeffery Dahmer saying how without God, there's no reason to be moral, "Can atheists answer him yet?">

"Getting caught is their only deterrent. Then they are sorry they got caught."



Other poster: " It's called empathy. Psychopaths, whether atheistic or theistic, don't have it."


Me: "Why do all atheists have to answer for one bad atheist's views? Does one bad Christian prove Christianity to be bad or immoral?

Two things:

1) As mentioned by <Other Poster>, empathy is a driving factor for many (myself included).

2) As someone who believes there is an invisible, omnipresent judge watching over your every move, it seems odd to complain about "getting caught" being a bad motivator."



Another poster: "Rob, to respond to your second observation - As a Christian, I'm not afraid of getting caught."


Me: "Neither am I. I don't feel compelled to do bad things."


Srsly guys, it's not that hard.

Take the “No True Scotsman” argument out for a spin. Tell them that Dahmer wasn’t a True Atheist since True Atheists are peaceful, kind and loving. Big Grin

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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28-01-2015, 12:09 PM
RE: Best of from FB Apologetics group
(28-01-2015 09:57 AM)morondog Wrote:  What deos he think of killing enemy combatants? Murder might *by definition* be legally wrong but killing is justifiable - shades of grey are easy to find, why's he insisting on black and white?

Fuck, I can't even get him to explain why he thinks subjective morality is bad. I'm assuming his answer is something like "because I don't like it and assume it's wrong.", but I don't actually know because he can't break out of his little loop.


(28-01-2015 10:01 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(28-01-2015 09:42 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Him: If your decisions are just chemicals in your brain, you aren't making decisions. You're just chemicals. Nothing is right or wrong.

If your decisions are just obeying commands dictated by some other entity then you aren't making decisions. You're just a puppet. Nothing is right or wrong.

Don't worry. I'll get to that once I can get them to all stop repeating each other. I'm talking to three or four people now who are all saying something like "but then you couldn't say murder is wrong!". I just want to sigh when I agree that it's not objectively wrong. They can't get out of that little bubble.

It's like they all think that if it weren't objectively wrong, we'd all be murdering each other. They can't wrap their mind around the fact that they might be approaching this completely backward. We know not everyone is murderers and we do not know that morality is objective. So, why the assumption that we'd all be murderers?

But yeah, once I get them to move on, then I'll break down why objective morality isn't actually objective (unless they think there is a universal morality that somehow exists and is more powerful than God).


(28-01-2015 10:16 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Rob, I fear for your sanity.

Me too. I may quit this group. I have literally encountered one Christian there who is fun to talk to, and he's smart enough to steer clear of these threads. He spends most of his time arguing for evolution against the fundies.
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28-01-2015, 12:17 PM
RE: Best of from FB Apologetics group
(28-01-2015 12:09 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Don't worry. I'll get to that once I can get them to all stop repeating each other. I'm talking to three or four people now who are all saying something like "but then you couldn't say murder is wrong!". I just want to sigh when I agree that it's not objectively wrong. They can't get out of that little bubble.

Have you tried explaining how you CAN come to a rational conclusion that murder is wrong through a subjective evaluation? Maybe explaining that if you come to the same conclusion then it doesn't matter that you got there a different way and lead into the idea that maybe their god just came to the same conclusion so it isn't objective at all. Euthyphro isn't always easy to grasp when you first hear it.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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28-01-2015, 12:46 PM
RE: Best of from FB Apologetics group
I think the thing they're worried about is the implication that you can come to the conclusion that murder is *right* too Big Grin

Personally I think labelling things as right/wrong, good/evil is useful shorthand but ultimately pointless sans religious context. Also tends to confuse people 'cos they assume if you say "right" you mean "objectively right" Rolleyes

Ultimately there's what society accepts and rejects. What you yourself accept or reject. No particular right or wrong to any action. Just the action and it's consequences happen, and that's all. Some consequences we mutually agree shall occur in specific situations. Like murder carries consequence of trial + possible punishment. Murder isn't really "wrong" though. Just a legal thing. It'd be equally the same if eating bananas left-handed was outlawed. Action -> consequence. It doesn't mean sinistral consumption of tropical fruit is *intrinsically* wrong.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-01-2015, 01:50 PM
RE: Best of from FB Apologetics group
(28-01-2015 12:17 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Have you tried explaining how you CAN come to a rational conclusion that murder is wrong through a subjective evaluation? Maybe explaining that if you come to the same conclusion then it doesn't matter that you got there a different way and lead into the idea that maybe their god just came to the same conclusion so it isn't objective at all. Euthyphro isn't always easy to grasp when you first hear it.

I will at some point, and it will almost certainly be rejected because "but you're just chemicals so it doesn't matter. Can water murder? It's all meaningless!".

And I think that last part is what really does it for them. They need meaning. I had a candid talk with my dad about three months ago about religion, and that is his biggest reason for being Christian.


(28-01-2015 12:46 PM)morondog Wrote:  I think the thing they're worried about is the implication that you can come to the conclusion that murder is *right* too Big Grin

Which is dumb, because according to their view, murder becomes "right" as soon as God says it is. He's been known to drastically change his mind in the past... Dodgy


(28-01-2015 12:46 PM)morondog Wrote:  Personally I think labelling things as right/wrong, good/evil is useful shorthand but ultimately pointless sans religious context. Also tends to confuse people 'cos they assume if you say "right" you mean "objectively right" Rolleyes

Yeah. I've had to ask people to clarify more than once.


(28-01-2015 12:46 PM)morondog Wrote:  Ultimately there's what society accepts and rejects. What you yourself accept or reject. No particular right or wrong to any action. Just the action and it's consequences happen, and that's all. Some consequences we mutually agree shall occur in specific situations. Like murder carries consequence of trial + possible punishment. Murder isn't really "wrong" though. Just a legal thing. It'd be equally the same if eating bananas left-handed was outlawed. Action -> consequence. It doesn't mean sinistral consumption of tropical fruit is *intrinsically* wrong.

Try to tell them slavery is a good example of subjective morality changing, and they'll bust out some good old fashioned historical revisionism, mixed with healthy doses of playing fast and loose with the definition of "slavery" as found in the Bible.
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28-01-2015, 02:01 PM
RE: Best of from FB Apologetics group
(28-01-2015 01:50 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Try to tell them slavery is a good example of subjective morality changing, and they'll bust out some good old fashioned historical revisionism, mixed with healthy doses of playing fast and loose with the definition of "slavery" as found in the Bible.

The one I've heard is "That was then, things wuz different then"... er... I thought you were arguing for objective morality...

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-01-2015, 02:39 PM
RE: Best of from FB Apologetics group
(28-01-2015 01:50 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(28-01-2015 12:17 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Have you tried explaining how you CAN come to a rational conclusion that murder is wrong through a subjective evaluation? Maybe explaining that if you come to the same conclusion then it doesn't matter that you got there a different way and lead into the idea that maybe their god just came to the same conclusion so it isn't objective at all. Euthyphro isn't always easy to grasp when you first hear it.

I will at some point, and it will almost certainly be rejected because "but you're just chemicals so it doesn't matter. Can water murder? It's all meaningless!".

And I think that last part is what really does it for them. They need meaning. I had a candid talk with my dad about three months ago about religion, and that is his biggest reason for being Christian.


(28-01-2015 12:46 PM)morondog Wrote:  I think the thing they're worried about is the implication that you can come to the conclusion that murder is *right* too Big Grin

Which is dumb, because according to their view, murder becomes "right" as soon as God says it is. He's been known to drastically change his mind in the past... Dodgy


(28-01-2015 12:46 PM)morondog Wrote:  Personally I think labelling things as right/wrong, good/evil is useful shorthand but ultimately pointless sans religious context. Also tends to confuse people 'cos they assume if you say "right" you mean "objectively right" Rolleyes

Yeah. I've had to ask people to clarify more than once.


(28-01-2015 12:46 PM)morondog Wrote:  Ultimately there's what society accepts and rejects. What you yourself accept or reject. No particular right or wrong to any action. Just the action and it's consequences happen, and that's all. Some consequences we mutually agree shall occur in specific situations. Like murder carries consequence of trial + possible punishment. Murder isn't really "wrong" though. Just a legal thing. It'd be equally the same if eating bananas left-handed was outlawed. Action -> consequence. It doesn't mean sinistral consumption of tropical fruit is *intrinsically* wrong.

Try to tell them slavery is a good example of subjective morality changing, and they'll bust out some good old fashioned historical revisionism, mixed with healthy doses of playing fast and loose with the definition of "slavery" as found in the Bible.

The whole water thing is more of an obtuse way of saying HE has no value, he thinks value can only have meaning if an external source says it has. This is just someone that is scared of the realization that their own sense of value and purpose is generated from within themselves.
His religious beliefs give him the illusion of external value, it's hard to let go of that.

The universe doesn't revolve around us..... scary stuff!

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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28-01-2015, 03:11 PM
RE: Best of from FB Apologetics group
(08-01-2015 10:25 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Wow! I ran into an "argument" refuting evolution. I stopped reading his post after the first premise:

1. Every mutation that we have ever observed was disadvantageous.

Most of the comments in the thread were people telling him this was wrong. Even people with a high-school level understanding of evolution would catch that.

I wonder if this dude has consumed any dairy products without falling ill recently. Drinking Beverage

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