Best place to debate theists
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28-12-2012, 02:16 AM
RE: Best place to debate theists
(28-12-2012 01:04 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(28-12-2012 12:19 AM)Egor Wrote:  Rather, I will drag you by your motherfucking hair, kicking and screaming, to the feet of Christ where you will be judged and sent to hell for denying the Creator which formed you for His purposes.

How can you be serious about this?
Your presentation of God pushes people away from Him even further. You're not helping Egor. You're demeanor is a serious flaw and it's completely shocking that a person can actually think that this is how someone who believes in something like God is suppose to act.

You have serious problems, and I have a serious problem with you.

(EDIT: I am aware that I have shown some flaws on this Forum as well. So if I am out of line here, let me know...)
I think it is safe to say that Paul is on fire today.

I loved your first response to Egor. Though I may not share your views on a deity, its good to know you can be as terse and deadly and awesome as anyother logical person here.

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28-12-2012, 06:32 AM
RE: Best place to debate theists
(28-12-2012 01:04 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(28-12-2012 12:19 AM)Egor Wrote:  Rather, I will drag you by your motherfucking hair, kicking and screaming, to the feet of Christ where you will be judged and sent to hell for denying the Creator which formed you for His purposes.

How can you be serious about this?
Your presentation of God pushes people away from Him even further. You're not helping Egor. You're demeanor is a serious flaw and it's completely shocking that a person can actually think that this is how someone who believes in something like God is suppose to act.

You have serious problems, and I have a serious problem with you.

(EDIT: I am aware that I have shown some flaws on this Forum as well. So if I am out of line here, let me know...)


I just love it when the theists start biting and scratching and rolling around in the muck together. Yes

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-12-2012, 10:37 AM
RE: Best place to debate theists
(27-12-2012 12:54 PM)Egor Wrote:  Truth is: I'm your best bet for debate.
Debating requires real discussion and at least some arguments. Cussing at people, insisting you are right, and calling people a variety of words that mean "stupid" for not believing as you do is not debating. Drinking Beverage

Egor Wrote:This forum has me.
And you're not the only theist on here. In fact, given your tendency to shift back and forth about what you believe, I might be inclined to call you the least theist-like of all the theists on here.

Silence is only golden when it's not synonymous with a failure to speak out against injustice.

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." --Gene Roddenberry
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28-12-2012, 11:33 AM
RE: Best place to debate theists
(27-12-2012 12:54 PM)Egor Wrote:  The atheist, of course, wants tricks that are repeatable in a laboratory. You try telling them a repeated miracle is no longer a miracle but simply a strange phenomenon, like dark matter, but still that's what they want to see. It won't convince them God exists--why would it? You try telling them that. But that's what they want--a magic show. They are simpletons, just like the religious.
What's wrong with wanting something repeatable? If you believe that something has happened in the past, such as God telling Abraham to murder his son, and you believe that this God is the same today, tomorrow, and forever, then such events should repeat naturally. But you are as repulsed as we are when a woman drowns her children and claims that God commanded her to do it. If you believe that God made fire burn on an altar covered in water to the witness of several thousand worshipers of Baal, you should expect that God will happily repeat that trick for us atheists. The fact that these things don't happen today is one reason that we don't believe they ever did happen.

While we do want a "magic show" (why would we believe in magic if we never see it?), that's unlike the religious who are content to believe in things that they never witness. And belief without a reason to believe is what makes one a "simpleton".

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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28-12-2012, 11:40 AM
RE: Best place to debate theists
(28-12-2012 10:37 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(27-12-2012 12:54 PM)Egor Wrote:  Truth is: I'm your best bet for debate.
Debating requires real discussion and at least some arguments. Cussing at people, insisting you are right, and calling people a variety of words that mean "stupid" for not believing as you do is not debating. Drinking Beverage

Egor Wrote:This forum has me.
And you're not the only theist on here. In fact, given your tendency to shift back and forth about what you believe, I might be inclined to call you the least theist-like of all the theists on here.
Egor's more like the punching bag everyone pisses on when there's no fresh meat.

Bury me with my guns on, so when I reach the other side - I can show him what it feels like to die.
Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
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28-12-2012, 12:25 PM
 
RE: Best place to debate theists
(28-12-2012 01:04 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  How can you be serious about this?
Your presentation of God pushes people away from Him even further. You're not helping Egor. You're demeanor is a serious flaw and it's completely shocking that a person can actually think that this is how someone who believes in something like God is suppose to act.

You have serious problems, and I have a serious problem with you.

God isn't all Hallmark cards and little lambs with children. God is nuclear explosions and Venus flytraps as well. Are you a theist? I can't tell? Are you a Christian? I have no idea.

No one mistakes what I am. I don't have a problem. If you have a problem with me, then get over it or heal over it, because I'm not changing.

Quote:(EDIT: I am aware that I have shown some flaws on this Forum as well. So if I am out of line here, let me know...)

Just put your atheist collar back on and collect your reputation dog biscuits and you'll be fine.

(28-12-2012 06:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  I just love it when the theists start biting and scratching and rolling around in the muck together. Yes

Me, too. Thumbsup


(28-12-2012 11:33 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  What's wrong with wanting something repeatable?

Because not everything is repeatable. You're not repeatable. In all the universe there has never been a creature like you, and there never will be again. The Gospels will never be written again (Even The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ is derivative.). Every moment in time is different than before. Every snowflake, they say, is different. Some things aren't repeatable. Some things are not consistent. I have not found precognition to be consistent or controllable.

God, being everything, is not something observable in the traditional sense. That which we consider supernatural (which is a bad term all around), apparently is not controllable or repeatable by natural processes. But even some physical properties are completely indescribable. We know there is dark matter and energy, but we don't have a clue what it could be. We have no clue how gravity works, we can describe quantum mechanics, but we can't explain it at all.

As soon as you start repeating something, it becomes a natural process. If you could repeat amputees regrowing limbs through prayer on a consistent repeatable basis, you would just lump it in with other natural processes we can't explain at this time. It would not prove God exists.

God is consciousness fundamentally. He is only proved in the realm of consciousness. The best tools we have for that are reason, logic, meditation, philosophical discourse, thought experiments, altered states of consciousness, the study of the mind, and the observation of other conscious beings.

The proof you want is no different than me saying I want proof my house exists, but I will only accept proof that comes from experiments I can do in a chemistry lab.

Quote: If you believe that something has happened in the past, such as God telling Abraham to murder his son, and you believe that this God is the same today, tomorrow, and forever, then such events should repeat naturally.

Okay, so you have a problem with the fictional tales told by the Jewish religion. You want proof that those tales are real. I can save you some time--they're not. Fiction is used to tell the truth in the form of stories. When we receive the truth via non-fiction, we look for the qualifications of the writer, outside evidence that what is written corresponds to reality, etc. When we read fiction, the story ruminates in our mind and causes us to form our own opinions that correspond to the truth (if the fiction is working, that is). When we form our own opinions of the truth, we are changed by it, internally. That's what Bible stories are for. The best of those stories are the Gospels by far.


Quote:But you are as repulsed as we are when a woman drowns her children and claims that God commanded her to do it. If you believe that God made fire burn on an altar covered in water to the witness of several thousand worshipers of Baal, you should expect that God will happily repeat that trick for us atheists. The fact that these things don't happen today is one reason that we don't believe they ever did happen.

Let's not forget that in the story of Abraham, no one got hurt. But I'll go you one further: If God didn't want those children drowned in a bathtub, they wouldn't have been drowned. No one wants to admit it, but the evil that happens is God's will, too.

Quote:While we do want a "magic show" (why would we believe in magic if we never see it?), that's unlike the religious who are content to believe in things that they never witness. And belief without a reason to believe is what makes one a "simpleton".

First off, I agree with you about the religious. I can't even stand to go into Catholic Forums or Christian Forums anymore. I am not religious. You may think I am, but I'm not. I have no rituals and no faith. I believe in God because it's insane not to. I believe in Jesus Christ as I have come to know him in the Gospels, because He is a revelation of God to mankind and a teacher for those of us who want to carry out the purpose for which all humans were created--that is to become Christ. I'm not a Christian; no Christian believes the way I do. I am literally a freethinker.

You think there is no reason to believe in God, but I think that's insane. If, in fact, you don't believe in God and you consider that a rational way to think, I believe you are insane. Of course, I think you probably do believe in God, you just hate religion. That's 90% of all atheists. Yes
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28-12-2012, 02:23 PM
RE: Best place to debate theists
Woo wooooo this Egor is Deepak Chopra!

Antitheist - Tooth Fairy Agnostic - Rationalist - Humanist - Individualist - Libertarian Minarchist

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28-12-2012, 03:59 PM
RE: Best place to debate theists
(28-12-2012 12:25 PM)Egor Wrote:  Of course, I think you probably do believe in God, you just hate religion. That's 90% of all atheists. Yes
Really, Egor? I thought you were more original than that.

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28-12-2012, 08:39 PM
RE: Best place to debate theists
(28-12-2012 12:25 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(28-12-2012 11:33 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  What's wrong with wanting something repeatable?

Because not everything is repeatable. You're not repeatable. In all the universe there has never been a creature like you, and there never will be again. The Gospels will never be written again (Even The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ is derivative.). Every moment in time is different than before. Every snowflake, they say, is different. Some things aren't repeatable. Some things are not consistent. I have not found precognition to be consistent or controllable.

God, being everything, is not something observable in the traditional sense. That which we consider supernatural (which is a bad term all around), apparently is not controllable or repeatable by natural processes. But even some physical properties are completely indescribable. We know there is dark matter and energy, but we don't have a clue what it could be. We have no clue how gravity works, we can describe quantum mechanics, but we can't explain it at all.

As soon as you start repeating something, it becomes a natural process. If you could repeat amputees regrowing limbs through prayer on a consistent repeatable basis, you would just lump it in with other natural processes we can't explain at this time. It would not prove God exists.

God is consciousness fundamentally. He is only proved in the realm of consciousness. The best tools we have for that are reason, logic, meditation, philosophical discourse, thought experiments, altered states of consciousness, the study of the mind, and the observation of other conscious beings.

The proof you want is no different than me saying I want proof my house exists, but I will only accept proof that comes from experiments I can do in a chemistry lab.

Quote: If you believe that something has happened in the past, such as God telling Abraham to murder his son, and you believe that this God is the same today, tomorrow, and forever, then such events should repeat naturally.

Okay, so you have a problem with the fictional tales told by the Jewish religion. You want proof that those tales are real. I can save you some time--they're not. Fiction is used to tell the truth in the form of stories. When we receive the truth via non-fiction, we look for the qualifications of the writer, outside evidence that what is written corresponds to reality, etc. When we read fiction, the story ruminates in our mind and causes us to form our own opinions that correspond to the truth (if the fiction is working, that is). When we form our own opinions of the truth, we are changed by it, internally. That's what Bible stories are for. The best of those stories are the Gospels by far.


Quote:But you are as repulsed as we are when a woman drowns her children and claims that God commanded her to do it. If you believe that God made fire burn on an altar covered in water to the witness of several thousand worshipers of Baal, you should expect that God will happily repeat that trick for us atheists. The fact that these things don't happen today is one reason that we don't believe they ever did happen.

Let's not forget that in the story of Abraham, no one got hurt. But I'll go you one further: If God didn't want those children drowned in a bathtub, they wouldn't have been drowned. No one wants to admit it, but the evil that happens is God's will, too.

Quote:While we do want a "magic show" (why would we believe in magic if we never see it?), that's unlike the religious who are content to believe in things that they never witness. And belief without a reason to believe is what makes one a "simpleton".

First off, I agree with you about the religious. I can't even stand to go into Catholic Forums or Christian Forums anymore. I am not religious. You may think I am, but I'm not. I have no rituals and no faith. I believe in God because it's insane not to. I believe in Jesus Christ as I have come to know him in the Gospels, because He is a revelation of God to mankind and a teacher for those of us who want to carry out the purpose for which all humans were created--that is to become Christ. I'm not a Christian; no Christian believes the way I do. I am literally a freethinker.

You think there is no reason to believe in God, but I think that's insane. If, in fact, you don't believe in God and you consider that a rational way to think, I believe you are insane. Of course, I think you probably do believe in God, you just hate religion. That's 90% of all atheists. Yes

The fact that "not everything is repeatable" doesn't mean that we should want it to be that way. The fact that chocolate makes me fat isn't pleasant, but it doesn't deter me from wishing that chocolate was healthy.

You made a great list of things science doesn't have a good grasp on, and those are all things that could be disproved tomorrow because they aren't well-observed. But there are things that have been observed better and more "repeatedly", such as prayer having no discernible effect or about the body's lack of a soul. The scientific opinion on nearly anything related to God is unlikely to be overturned because we can test God and He fails with surprising regularity.

I love how theists always answer the Abraham question with "but Isaac was spared", so I can then hit 'em with the story of Jepthah who made a similar promise to sacrifice his daughter (and she was not spared). And I love how you think evil is part of God's will (they're so cute at that age!). 1 Thessalonians 4:3 specifically states that it is God's will that people abstain from sexual immorality... are you positing that this is what always happens, because's "God's will is always done"?

I don't "hate religion", and no matter how many times we correct you it'll never sink in. We keep trying to show you our point-of-view by asking if you "hate Islam" just because you're not a Muslim, and you still don't get it. We tell you that "believing in God" makes you religious by definition and "believing in Jesus Christ" makes you a Christian by definition, and you just keep thinking that you can define words however you like. English wouldn't work as a mode of transferring information if we all had personal definitions for every word. But I don't expect you to suddenly become rational and understand obvious truths just because we keep hitting you over the head with them (and citing them). Think whatever silliness you like that makes you comfortable with yourself, as if you need my invitation to do so.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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15-01-2013, 06:46 PM (This post was last modified: 15-01-2013 06:59 PM by Lion IRC.)
RE: Best place to debate theists
(27-12-2012 11:34 AM)GodlessnFree Wrote:  ...Many people immediately think that anybody wanting to debate in the internet is just a troll wanting to have fun. Not my case at all.

Agreed. Applauded. People who accuse folk like you (and me) of being trolls are, themselves, trolling or gutlessly trying to avoid defending their own worldview which they often want you to accept without argument or question.


(27-12-2012 11:34 AM)GodlessnFree Wrote:  ...My problem is that most pages are 1 of the following:

1) Theist Webpage: If you criticize their ideas you get banned inmediately. For instance, christianforums.com

Yes, that forum does have very strict, tightly-controlled posting criteria. But they are a HUGE forum that isnt pleading for more members.
They are pretty well-known as a place that doesnt bend the rules in favor of free speech. If a counter-apologist or anti-theist went there unwilling to conform to their standards and rules they arent going reach a very high post count.

(27-12-2012 11:34 AM)GodlessnFree Wrote:  2) Atheist Webgage: Free Speech, Nice people, No bans for thinking differently. An example of that environment is this forum. However, no theists here so no debates (with few exceptions of course).

There are plenty of biblical theists who would love to do AvT evangelism apologetics at predominantly atheist venues.
But so many of those places regard this as preaching rather than ''putting your case''.

(27-12-2012 11:34 AM)GodlessnFree Wrote:  I hope this is a false dichotomy. If anyone knew a page where different point of views meet while at the same time free speech is allowed, I would be very glad to go there...

No, I think you are right. You're stating the obvious.
Forums (fora) come in many different colors, shapes and sizes. And not every forum (collectively) provides what individual visitors might expect.
Its tough to balance the bona fide desire for a free speech contest of ideas, with the existence of unwanted speech by people who arent welcome at a forum.

From your Op I would say that I'd love to visit any forum that was made up of atheists like you. :cheers:

Lets not forget that the Moderators of many fora are (much-needed) volunteers. Their interpretation of the rules might not accord with the same spirit of free and open good will AvT dialogue as you and I. And they might even occasionally/inadvertently allow a bit of their subconscious atheist/theist bias to affect their otherwise impartial enforcement of the rules. Waddyagonna do? Sack the only Mods who are willing to do the job?
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