Beyond Belief- Beyond Atheism
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17-10-2014, 09:15 PM
RE: Beyond Belief- Beyond Atheism
I just don't believe in gods, bro. That's it. If someone's got a god, I don't believe in it. Maybe I even believe in the absence of a few of them. Depends on the god. Either way, no gods here. Drinking Beverage

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17-10-2014, 10:59 PM (This post was last modified: 17-10-2014 11:07 PM by cjlr.)
RE: Beyond Belief- Beyond Atheism
(17-10-2014 06:38 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Looks like I've made the igtheists angry. Better run. Tongue.

Seriously do have to go though, but also not enjoying this discourse. My problem is I doubt you have less than a solid concept of what somebody means when they talk of a "god", especially given whatever cultural or situational context the discussion was raised in. I believe you might question the specifics of the god's attributes or actions (in which case a more valid question than "what is god?" would be "what does your god do?"). If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. You know yourself better than I do. I'm just doubtful, that's all.

Frankly that's kind of insane.

"Oh, I know what you said, but I still think I think that I know what you think they think, I think..."

Whatever pop culture bastard amalgam you're imagining, that doesn't in and of itself mean anything. As I said previously, just because a believer can repeat slogans and rote answers ("God is love!" "God is just!") doesn't mean they have any genuine conception behind it, much less one they can articulate.

Superficial vagueries are not good enough. Are they good enough for a given believer in an unexamined life? Perhaps. Are they sufficient for the kind of discussion I'd like to have? Fuck no.

"What is [G/g]od" is absolutely a valid question. It is the most valid question, from which all others proceed. In a sense it is the only valid question to start with; if it cannot be adequately answered - and to all my knowledge it never has been, a position I know Bucky among others agrees with me on - then that is both the beginning and end of discussion.

A: "I believe X."
B: "What do you mean by X?"
A: "lol i dunno"
B: ...
The End.

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18-10-2014, 02:44 AM
RE: Beyond Belief- Beyond Atheism
(17-10-2014 02:00 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  Atheism is the positive claim that logic can be used without God.

Nope, go fuck yourself.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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18-10-2014, 02:55 AM
RE: Beyond Belief- Beyond Atheism
Dubitaliberputantnoncreditist? Skeptical, free thinking, non believer? ... Seems a bit long, though. Tongue
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18-10-2014, 08:38 AM
RE: Beyond Belief- Beyond Atheism
(17-10-2014 05:50 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Great post!

Thank you. I appreciate that.

(17-10-2014 05:50 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  How about the term "Realist"?

I don't know. I like pointing out that I am grounded in the material world. "Rationalist" might be another good one like that. I will think about it.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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18-10-2014, 08:42 AM
RE: Beyond Belief- Beyond Atheism
(17-10-2014 06:06 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  It's hard for me to say too much because I don't really think the label itself is that valuable at all. It simplifies things in the context of debate, but how often are you in that situation as a person? Even then, I think explaining the meaning of what you belief/think and why cuts past labels.

As for thinking the term atheist fails in a way because it doesn't inform the basic vital information about you, I feel that's a misguided hope that any label could. Lets say I used the label a writer to describe myself in actions I take and mindset, it doesn't give vital info about my belief. Even religious labels of Christian or Pentecostal could still only give you an inkling to what that person believes, because even people in deeply rooting denominations are unlikely to definitely hold the positions their religious sect proclaims to be true.

You could be very right about it being a misguided hope, yet I am interested in any label which actually shares some of my positive beliefs, rather than just what I reject. I want to at least be on par with a Christian or a Jew in that when they hear my label they associate it with positive beliefs. I don't expect it to be perfect.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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18-10-2014, 08:51 AM
RE: Beyond Belief- Beyond Atheism
(18-10-2014 02:44 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(17-10-2014 02:00 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  Atheism is the positive claim that logic can be used without God.

Nope, go fuck yourself.

Well, how can you use logic without God? Drinking Beverage

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18-10-2014, 09:00 AM
RE: Beyond Belief- Beyond Atheism
When it comes to Igtheism, I think I see a point in both sides of the argument.

I have noticed that even in religions where god is defined by scripture, which is considered divine perfect revelation, the individual members tailor their personal understanding of god's nature to fit their own emotional needs. The result, confusion. If I am in the business of refuting their nonsense, which of course I am, I have to ask a lot of questions about their particular definition.

I remember what it was like on the other end of the equation, trying to fit my own needs while also submitting to what my religion said about god's nature. I don't remember noticing any conflicts between my own understanding and that of my friends. I wonder if I was just ignoring it? I don't know.

Even with this private tailoring, I consider the monotheistic scriptural god a somewhat coherent picture. It is the image of anthropomorphic immortal character with a list of attributes. I do not think it is inaccurate to say that this definition is the most common and is coherent enough to allow interfaith discussion with some clarity.

Of course, Atheists have pointed out that even these commonly defined attributes are contradictory. Omni-Benevolence is incompatible with the creation and use of hell. Perfection in justice negates perfection of mercy. I could go on. Therefore, ultimately there is no genuinely coherent definition, only the shell of an attempt at one. Yet, I consider it enough for a sound debate.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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18-10-2014, 09:02 AM
RE: Beyond Belief- Beyond Atheism
(18-10-2014 08:51 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  Well, how can you use logic without God? Drinking Beverage

No thanks. That has already be answered here.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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18-10-2014, 06:47 PM
RE: Beyond Belief- Beyond Atheism



#sigh
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