Beyond Belief- Beyond Atheism
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22-10-2014, 05:57 PM
RE: Beyond Belief- Beyond Atheism
(22-10-2014 05:45 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  
(22-10-2014 03:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  How about reality and humanism? That works.

Reality, as percieved by whom?

Shared perception. Repeatable results. The usual.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-10-2014, 06:27 PM
RE: Beyond Belief- Beyond Atheism
(22-10-2014 05:57 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-10-2014 05:45 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  Reality, as percieved by whom?

Shared perception. Repeatable results. The usual.

Yeah, but who percieves that? You? You're not an ultimate authority.

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22-10-2014, 06:44 PM
RE: Beyond Belief- Beyond Atheism
(17-10-2014 10:59 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(17-10-2014 06:38 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Looks like I've made the igtheists angry. Better run. Tongue.

Seriously do have to go though, but also not enjoying this discourse. My problem is I doubt you have less than a solid concept of what somebody means when they talk of a "god", especially given whatever cultural or situational context the discussion was raised in. I believe you might question the specifics of the god's attributes or actions (in which case a more valid question than "what is god?" would be "what does your god do?"). If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. You know yourself better than I do. I'm just doubtful, that's all.

Frankly that's kind of insane.

"Oh, I know what you said, but I still think I think that I know what you think they think, I think..."

Whatever pop culture bastard amalgam you're imagining, that doesn't in and of itself mean anything. As I said previously, just because a believer can repeat slogans and rote answers ("God is love!" "God is just!") doesn't mean they have any genuine conception behind it, much less one they can articulate.

Superficial vagueries are not good enough. Are they good enough for a given believer in an unexamined life? Perhaps. Are they sufficient for the kind of discussion I'd like to have? Fuck no.

"What is [G/g]od" is absolutely a valid question. It is the most valid question, from which all others proceed. In a sense it is the only valid question to start with; if it cannot be adequately answered - and to all my knowledge it never has been, a position I know Bucky among others agrees with me on - then that is both the beginning and end of discussion.

A: "I believe X."
B: "What do you mean by X?"
A: "lol i dunno"
B: ...
The End.
Haha, insane eh?

I understand your reasoning (behind igtheism). I just find it a tedious position based on making a point rather than on trying to have open and honest discourse. It's the type of position that can applied to any abstract or over-arching entity or idea (e.g. "God", "Hero", "Monster", "Culture"). For any person to person discussion, there are always individual perceptions/definitions/interpretations for those. And in that setting (p2p), I find the question, "What is god, to you?" meaningful and valid. However in the context of a cultural reference, those abstract entities or ideas have generally understood definitions, even if at the individual level there will more likely than not be deviation.

Another way I see it is that the word "god" is similar to the word "animal" in that it's a label that applies to many classes and subclasses of beings. Just because I don't know which specific animal somebody is referencing when they say "animal" doesn't mean I don't understand their use of the word. Nor would it mean I couldn't infer some specific traits of the animal of which they spoke of based on context and/or details provided. But I suppose your likely response is that "animal" has a more clear definition than "god" and whatnot. But ah well. Do what works for you, I'm just saying I don't favor that position.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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22-10-2014, 06:54 PM
RE: Beyond Belief- Beyond Atheism
(17-10-2014 07:38 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Dildo also thinks he's coherent and reasonable. He's not. That's the fucking problem.
Is that not relative though? If he were in a contained environment only surrounded by those who shared his beliefs wouldn't they be considered reasonable? I mean, I can't comprehend what it would be like actually believing in the supernatural. So my perspective probably is way off.

Quote:Fantasy only requires a temporary suspension of disbelief which Hollywood uses for entertainment purposes all the time. Got no problem with being entertained. Promising a postmortem preservation of identity of eternal bliss requires something else entirely. It requires me to relinquish and surrender my rationality.
I would consider that a fantasy though Consider. What fantasy involving magic/supernatural forces/world/planes wouldn't require you to relinquish your rationality if you believed in it?

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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22-10-2014, 09:32 PM
RE: Beyond Belief- Beyond Atheism
A fantasy that you believe to be real is different from a fantasy that you accept is a fantasy.

If someone took one Disney movie and behaved as if all of those characters were real, but all the other Disney movies are seen as fantasy, then there is a problem. A big problem, especially when 100 million people want goofy taught in school as a historical figure who is real and want goofy on our money and in our pledge of allegiance and anyone who doesn't believe in goofy is ridiculed.

Insane in the membrane

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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22-10-2014, 11:02 PM
RE: Beyond Belief- Beyond Atheism
(22-10-2014 06:44 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  I understand your reasoning (behind igtheism). I just find it a tedious position based on making a point rather than on trying to have open and honest discourse.

Aye, there's the rub. As evidenced by the ongoing argument amongst humanity at large for the last.......well, ever since the idea was brought up, no one has ever been able to nail down a definition of a god that is altogether satisfactory to inquiring minds.

That is why igtheism is valid. Open and honest discourse over the history of mankind has gotten us, if anything, farther and farther away from being able to provide such a definition.

The concept of god is tedious, that is the point. Until a better defined concept of what "god" may be and what it might entail, igtheism as a position of stalemate is the best we can really do.

(to clarify, I don't really claim "igtheism", but I agree with the argument)

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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23-10-2014, 02:26 AM
RE: Beyond Belief- Beyond Atheism
Having an open and honest discourse about religion is like discussing whether it's gravity or tiny angels holding you to the ground.

My honesty turns into ranting about 30 seconds into the discussion

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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23-10-2014, 03:23 AM
RE: Beyond Belief- Beyond Atheism
(22-10-2014 06:27 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  
(22-10-2014 05:57 PM)Chas Wrote:  Shared perception. Repeatable results. The usual.

Yeah, but who percieves that? You? You're not an ultimate authority.

Which part of shared don't you understand?

I perceive that you are a troll.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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