Bibi is a cunt.
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23-03-2015, 04:26 PM
RE: Bibi is a cunt.
(23-03-2015 01:02 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
(23-03-2015 05:56 AM)BnW Wrote:  Why is Palestinians in quotes? Are they just pretending to be Palestinians?

Because there were no Palestinian people before the 1967 war.

Until then the people living there were simply called Arabs and were either ruled by Jordan or Egypt. Palestinians as a people were created once Jordan and Egypt renounced their claims to any land in the region.

Seriously? No Palestininians? Before the modern state of Israel, there was Palestine. Therefore there were, and are, Palestinians.

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23-03-2015, 04:39 PM
RE: Bibi is a cunt.
(23-03-2015 04:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-03-2015 01:02 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Because there were no Palestinian people before the 1967 war.

Until then the people living there were simply called Arabs and were either ruled by Jordan or Egypt. Palestinians as a people were created once Jordan and Egypt renounced their claims to any land in the region.

Seriously? No Palestininians? Before the modern state of Israel, there was Palestine. Therefore there were, and are, Palestinians.

No there was not.

It was part of the Ottoman Empire with an Arab Population.

After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire it became part of the British Empire and still had an Arab population.

The British promissed a quater of the land to zionist jewish settlers.

After the British mandate ended, the israelis declared independence and Jordan occupied the West Bank and Egypt occupied Gaza.

The term Palestine as a nation really only started coming up during the 1960s with the foundation of the PLO and the notion of an independent Arab state.

You know this flag:

[Image: 800px-Flag_of_Palestine.svg.png]

It wasnt invented by Arabs.

It was designed by Mark Sykes and is actualy not the flag of an Arab palestinian state but was the official flag of the British mandated erea of palestine.

Yeah. I want the people in the West Bank to have their own state. But the claim that they had a state before is a myth.

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23-03-2015, 05:13 PM
RE: Bibi is a cunt.
I never really thought about where the name came from or when it originated. I just did a quick Google and it seems they were referred to as "Palestinian Arabs" until 1964, when they started to be referred to as "Palestinians".

So fucking what?

The marketing doesn't change the problem. Pretending there is no grievance or issue doesn't change any of the realities.

I really hate things like this. I see this kind of bullshit all the time and it's one of the few things that actually annoys me enough to get a real reaction. Dismissing someone with a legitimate grievance based on technicalities. Who fucking cares what they are called or when they started to be called that? How does that change anything? It's nothing more than a dodge.

And, for the record, I think Israel not only has a right to exist but has a right to exist without having missiles lobbed at her citizenry. I'm also not convinced that a new Palestinian country is going to resolve the problems there. There is a percentage of the Palestinian people (or whatever stupid nomenclature you insist on calling them) who are never going to willingly recognize Israel's right to exist. I get that. What I don't get is this need to perpetuate the stupidity.

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23-03-2015, 05:14 PM
RE: Bibi is a cunt.
(23-03-2015 11:46 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(23-03-2015 11:24 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  I support a western style society. I do not support a Jewish based Constitution. It is still government setting up religious/or race if they want to do that, social pecking orders. It is about religion, and I am sick of Jews claiming it is not.

Zionism is not about religion, despite the claims of the ignorant. Herzl (source), considered the founder of Zionism, was an atheist who abhorred circumcision. David Ben-Gurion, the founder of Israel, was an atheist (source). Golda Meir, the Iron Lady of Israel, was an atheist (source). The current Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu is secular (source) (although not necessarily an atheist). What has to be understood is that Jews are a ethnoreligious group. When the Israeli constitution says that Israel is a "Jewish state" it is referring to the ethnic and national character of the state, not to the religion of Judaism.

And you say that you support a Western-style society, that is exactly what Israel is. That is not to say that there are not those in Israel who support a theocracy (The Jewish Home for example), but America has these fanatical types as well, and is still a Western-style society. Israel does not have a social pecking order, Arabs share the same rights as Jews. Arabs serve in the parliament, the supreme court and are eligible for any position open to Jews in Israeli society. The two official languages of Israel are Hebrew and Arabic.

Not ignorant at all, Zion, Jew, all of those code words exist because the Hebrew religion was started. Same stupid crap Muslims pull switching between race and religion.

If neither Hebrew or Islam were started none of this shit would be happening now. Of course if neither had been started others would have been started in their places. Still no excuse for either side. Race is used by both sides, then when they cant use that they use "ethic" then when they cant do that they use "culture. "

The fact Israel is more westernized does not mean they are not basing their laws on social pecking orders. Both sides claim that there was peace prior, but when you look at the entirety of both religions together, even prior to 48, that land has changed power multiple times back to wen Islam was started.

And who gives a fuck anyway. Zion Jew whatever, there were still humans occupying that land even prior to the Hebrews.

This IS about religion. One side being more watered down does not change that. Zionism is part of Hebrew. In tern interjecting religion into politics will cause rivals to not like them. On the other side you have mostly Muslims being backed up by other Muslims. They do not like each other because the entire region is set on religious based politics. BOTH SIDES.

Now tell me why Netenyahu would promise to base the nations laws on a Jewish Text the Talmud if it was intended on being secular with no social pecking order?

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/180440

Zion stems from the idea that Jews have a promised land. That is no different an attitude when Muslims talk about their religious states or when Christians say "Christian Nation". All three of them started in that same region so please don't tell me the beefs between all three don't drive their politics.

This is not about race, or ethnic this is about RELIGION.

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23-03-2015, 05:17 PM
RE: Bibi is a cunt.
(23-03-2015 04:39 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
(23-03-2015 04:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  Seriously? No Palestininians? Before the modern state of Israel, there was Palestine. Therefore there were, and are, Palestinians.

No there was not.

It was part of the Ottoman Empire with an Arab Population.

After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire it became part of the British Empire and still had an Arab population.

The British promissed a quater of the land to zionist jewish settlers.

After the British mandate ended, the israelis declared independence and Jordan occupied the West Bank and Egypt occupied Gaza.

The term Palestine as a nation really only started coming up during the 1960s with the foundation of the PLO and the notion of an independent Arab state.

You know this flag:

[Image: 800px-Flag_of_Palestine.svg.png]

It wasnt invented by Arabs.

It was designed by Mark Sykes and is actualy not the flag of an Arab palestinian state but was the official flag of the British mandated erea of palestine.

Yeah. I want the people in the West Bank to have their own state. But the claim that they had a state before is a myth.

I didn't say there was a government or a state. There was Palestine.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-03-2015, 05:18 PM
RE: Bibi is a cunt.
(23-03-2015 05:13 PM)BnW Wrote:  I never really thought about where the name came from or when it originated. I just did a quick Google and it seems they were referred to as "Palestinian Arabs" until 1964, when they started to be referred to as "Palestinians".

So fucking what?

The marketing doesn't change the problem. Pretending there is no grievance or issue doesn't change any of the realities.

Yeah indeed. So claiming that there was an Arab paradise before the arrival of the jews is also nonsence that isnt relevant to current affairs on the ground.

Quote:I really hate things like this. I see this kind of bullshit all the time and it's one of the few things that actually annoys me enough to get a real reaction. Dismissing someone with a legitimate grievance based on technicalities. Who fucking cares what they are called or when they started to be called that? How does that change anything? It's nothing more than a dodge.

It`s not a technicality to make up a grievance.
Quote:And, for the record, I think Israel not only has a right to exist but has a right to exist without having missiles lobbed at her citizenry. I'm also not convinced that a new Palestinian country is going to resolve the problems there. There is a percentage of the Palestinian people (or whatever stupid nomenclature you insist on calling them) who are never going to willingly recognize Israel's right to exist. I get that. What I don't get is this need to perpetuate the stupidity.

Exactly. Which is why the Arabs should stop lying to the world.

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23-03-2015, 05:22 PM
RE: Bibi is a cunt.
(23-03-2015 05:14 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  This is not about race, or ethnic this is about RELIGION.

I think that over simplifies the issue. It's tough to argue that religion does not play a part in this. Arabs tribes conquered each other repeatedly for centuries and the rule was always "to the victor goes the spoils". However, this was a bit different. This was an outside force coming in and acting like some kind of superior power and determining the boundaries and who would live where. Given the regions history with the west, going back to the Crusades, it's not hard to understand why people who lived there would be pretty pissed off at the arrogance of the British and Americans to basically tell them how it is. It's one thing to lose a war. It's another thing to not lose a war and have outsiders tell you how it's going to be.

Add to that, a lot of the regional governments are entirely illegitimate, propped up by first the British and then able to hold power through force; force supplied by the Brits and the Americans. They do not rule with the consent of the governed and very often they were religious minorities in places where those sort of things really mattered and there were very old grudges. Even when popular uprisings occurred and put in their own governments, if those governments were not friendly to British and US positions, they were at risk to be overthrown. The best example of this is the revolution in Iran in the 50s. That was actually democracy in action. The problem was they voted for a government that did not favor the US. So, what did the US do? They overthrow the elected government and put in a dictator in the form of the Shah (and we all know how that finally turned out).

So, the leaders of these countries have a whole lot of incentive to redirect their citizens outrage in another direction. And, Israel made a very easy target. That's not religion. That's the politics of real politik

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23-03-2015, 05:22 PM
RE: Bibi is a cunt.
(23-03-2015 05:17 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-03-2015 04:39 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  No there was not.

It was part of the Ottoman Empire with an Arab Population.

After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire it became part of the British Empire and still had an Arab population.

The British promissed a quater of the land to zionist jewish settlers.

After the British mandate ended, the israelis declared independence and Jordan occupied the West Bank and Egypt occupied Gaza.

The term Palestine as a nation really only started coming up during the 1960s with the foundation of the PLO and the notion of an independent Arab state.

You know this flag:

[Image: 800px-Flag_of_Palestine.svg.png]

It wasnt invented by Arabs.

It was designed by Mark Sykes and is actualy not the flag of an Arab palestinian state but was the official flag of the British mandated erea of palestine.

Yeah. I want the people in the West Bank to have their own state. But the claim that they had a state before is a myth.

I didn't say there was a government or a state. There was Palestine.

There was a mass of land.

Formaly known as Judea. The name Palestine was given to it by the Romans and was henceforth the name of it as a Roman province. Not even the Turks, Persians and Arabs called it Palestine until the 20th century when the British named their protectorate state Palestine.

I dont give a shit what you call. You can call it "land of the 3 big stupid myths" for all that I care.

What I do care about is to counter extremist notions of having a claim to a land based on former historical borders, like the Arabs do. Because if we follow that logic we might aswell give two thirds of modern Turkey to Greece or put all of Western Europe under Italian rule.

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23-03-2015, 05:24 PM
RE: Bibi is a cunt.
(23-03-2015 05:14 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  This is not about race, or ethnic this is about RELIGION.

Yeah right. Because all the jews of Europe had to do to avoid Auschwitz was convert to something else..... NOT.

Damn you are naiv.

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23-03-2015, 05:24 PM
RE: Bibi is a cunt.
(23-03-2015 05:18 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
(23-03-2015 05:13 PM)BnW Wrote:  I never really thought about where the name came from or when it originated. I just did a quick Google and it seems they were referred to as "Palestinian Arabs" until 1964, when they started to be referred to as "Palestinians".

So fucking what?

The marketing doesn't change the problem. Pretending there is no grievance or issue doesn't change any of the realities.

Yeah indeed. So claiming that there was an Arab paradise before the arrival of the jews is also nonsence that isnt relevant to current affairs on the ground.

Quote:I really hate things like this. I see this kind of bullshit all the time and it's one of the few things that actually annoys me enough to get a real reaction. Dismissing someone with a legitimate grievance based on technicalities. Who fucking cares what they are called or when they started to be called that? How does that change anything? It's nothing more than a dodge.

It`s not a technicality to make up a grievance.
Quote:And, for the record, I think Israel not only has a right to exist but has a right to exist without having missiles lobbed at her citizenry. I'm also not convinced that a new Palestinian country is going to resolve the problems there. There is a percentage of the Palestinian people (or whatever stupid nomenclature you insist on calling them) who are never going to willingly recognize Israel's right to exist. I get that. What I don't get is this need to perpetuate the stupidity.

Exactly. Which is why the Arabs should stop lying to the world.


Make up a grievance? They lived there. They lost their land and were forced out. That's not a made up grievance. That actually did happen. And now they live in a country where they are 2nd class citizens. That is not a made up grievance either. What the fuck are you talking about?

As for the lying, while it is true there are terrorists among them, not all those people are terrorists. But, all of them are paying a price for the acts of a few. That's not a lie either. It's a documented fact.

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