Bibi is a cunt.
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23-03-2015, 07:17 PM
RE: Bibi is a cunt.
(23-03-2015 06:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-03-2015 05:35 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  ... but all of our presidents have been Christian and ...

Um, no. Some were deists and at least one was probably atheist.

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, john Quincy Adams, Andrew Jackson, and John Tyler were deists or arguably so.

Yes, but after they died it didn't take long for those following to have to suck up to religion and as much as we quote them, they had to do it too. Our politicians both on the left and right constantly suck up to religion despite "no religious test".

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23-03-2015, 07:18 PM
RE: Bibi is a cunt.
(23-03-2015 07:13 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  Yes and the Germans set up a social pecking order, so what lesson do Jews or blacks or Native Americans for that matter serve long term if we forget social pecking orders based on race or religion never end up well.

So in your universe a social pecking order that was put in place in Auschwitz to stirr up the inmates against each other before going to the ofens has relevants on modern societies structures...

Quote:The lesson of the Holocaust isn't about one label hiding behind it. The lesson of the Holocaust is a lesson to ALL humans not to do that to their fellow humans, not just "don't pick on Jews".

Hear! Hear!

Forget Primo Levy!
Forget Theodor Adorno!
Forget Helmut Schmidt!
Forget Karl Popper!
Forget Ben Gureon!
Forget Jürgen Habermas!
Forget Friedrich von Hayek!
Forget Hannah Arendt!

Forget all great mind that tried to learn a definitive lessons from the holocaust and argued over it!

Brian from Minisota, or some other place like that, has enterd the stage to answere the question!

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23-03-2015, 07:21 PM
RE: Bibi is a cunt.
(23-03-2015 06:23 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
(23-03-2015 05:24 PM)BnW Wrote:  Make up a grievance? They lived there. They lost their land and were forced out. That's not a made up grievance. That actually did happen. And now they live in a country where they are 2nd class citizens. That is not a made up grievance either. What the fuck are you talking about?

There were 3 attempts to make peace before 1990.

First the jews got 20 percent of the land and the Arab the rest.
Second the jews were offerd a quarter of the land and the Arabs the rest.
Third the jews had gained half the land and the Arabs the rest.

Each time the jews accepted the offer made by UN and Brits for this land arrangement and each time the Arabs did not only refuse it but also emidiatly declare war and vowed to kill all jews. Under the first 2 agreements the jews would have even gotten land that didnt include a single Arab settlement.

But still. The Arabs and some naiv fools spread the myth of stolen land, agression and occupation.
The first step to peace really has to be the Arabs acknowleging their faults. the Israelis already acknowleged their mistakes in the Olso accords and it didnt bring any helpfull reaction by the Arabs whatsoever.

Quote:As for the lying, while it is true there are terrorists among them, not all those people are terrorists. But, all of them are paying a price for the acts of a few. That's not a lie either. It's a documented fact.





Now imagine what goes on on their streets when a bomb goes off in a pizza parlor in Tel Aviv.

If anything is to be learned from the past 30 years it is that one religion is decisively more violent and toxic than others and that this disease of violence is widespread throughout the entire muslim world and muslim population.

If you're looking for someone to defend Arafat, that someone won't be me. I wish there was a hell so that bastard could burn in it.

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23-03-2015, 07:27 PM
RE: Bibi is a cunt.
(23-03-2015 05:14 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(23-03-2015 11:46 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  Zionism is not about religion, despite the claims of the ignorant. Herzl (source), considered the founder of Zionism, was an atheist who abhorred circumcision. David Ben-Gurion, the founder of Israel, was an atheist (source). Golda Meir, the Iron Lady of Israel, was an atheist (source). The current Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu is secular (source) (although not necessarily an atheist). What has to be understood is that Jews are a ethnoreligious group. When the Israeli constitution says that Israel is a "Jewish state" it is referring to the ethnic and national character of the state, not to the religion of Judaism.

And you say that you support a Western-style society, that is exactly what Israel is. That is not to say that there are not those in Israel who support a theocracy (The Jewish Home for example), but America has these fanatical types as well, and is still a Western-style society. Israel does not have a social pecking order, Arabs share the same rights as Jews. Arabs serve in the parliament, the supreme court and are eligible for any position open to Jews in Israeli society. The two official languages of Israel are Hebrew and Arabic.

Not ignorant at all, Zion, Jew, all of those code words exist because the Hebrew religion was started. Same stupid crap Muslims pull switching between race and religion.

If neither Hebrew or Islam were started none of this shit would be happening now. Of course if neither had been started others would have been started in their places. Still no excuse for either side. Race is used by both sides, then when they cant use that they use "ethic" then when they cant do that they use "culture. "

The fact Israel is more westernized does not mean they are not basing their laws on social pecking orders. Both sides claim that there was peace prior, but when you look at the entirety of both religions together, even prior to 48, that land has changed power multiple times back to wen Islam was started.

And who gives a fuck anyway. Zion Jew whatever, there were still humans occupying that land even prior to the Hebrews.

This IS about religion. One side being more watered down does not change that. Zionism is part of Hebrew. In tern interjecting religion into politics will cause rivals to not like them. On the other side you have mostly Muslims being backed up by other Muslims. They do not like each other because the entire region is set on religious based politics. BOTH SIDES.

Now tell me why Netenyahu would promise to base the nations laws on a Jewish Text the Talmud if it was intended on being secular with no social pecking order?

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/180440

Zion stems from the idea that Jews have a promised land. That is no different an attitude when Muslims talk about their religious states or when Christians say "Christian Nation". All three of them started in that same region so please don't tell me the beefs between all three don't drive their politics.

This is not about race, or ethnic this is about RELIGION.

I'm sorry but that was almost wholly unintelligible.

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23-03-2015, 07:32 PM
RE: Bibi is a cunt.
Blacks went through shit in America, Natives Americans went through shit too. That does not mean Israel gets to be free from Criticism nor does it mean they don't have their own fundys. Netenyahu is the Dick Cheney of Israel and he wants a Jewish state like our white right wing in America wants a "Christian Nation". Otherwise why does he want at Talmud based Constitution?

THIS is about human behavior. Pluralism in western society is not served well by having laws that give special status favoring one race or one religion over all others. I don't think you understand that I look at my own country's past and and am trying to only say to Israel that they have the wrong leader and are going about it the wrong way.

You limit laws to neutral that don't prevent participation but ban favoritism. You protect freedom not through winking at one group and telling all others they are pets or guests. A Talmud based Constitution is no different, no matter how westernized, is no different to me than when Christians claim they are for my freedom but Americas laws are bible based.

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23-03-2015, 07:42 PM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2015 07:49 PM by earmuffs.)
RE: Bibi is a cunt.
Quote:And what you are missing from that equasion is that the Arabs replied not with a "No you cant have it" but with a "KILL ALL JEWS".

And in some occasions with a "Jews to the gas":

Christians hate Muslims, Muslims hate Christians. Christians hate Jews, Jews hate Christians. Muslims hate Jews, Jews hate Muslims.

People have been hating and wanting to kill each other since the first cavemen ran out of decent hunting ground and wanted to take over someone else's.
I don't see the Jew's as some special case that is deserving of such special treatment that warrants them a complete pass to be dicks and take over a people's homeland.

Quote:I am not saying that. I am saying that the claim to a Palestinian land that supposedly used to exist, eventhough it never existed, is a lie.

That's retarded. I'm saying that there was primarily an Arab population prior to the end of WW1/2. Those Arabs were forced out by the Jews. Those Arabs had/have all right to be pissed off and have a very valid claim. There wasn't a state of Israel prior to all the Jews moving over, why do they get special treatment?
At least the Arabs actually occupied that land prior.

Quote:Well thats a strawman.

No it's not.
"You make it sound like.."
Not a strawman, an opinion on what you come across as.

Quote:I support Israel because Auschwitz was supposed to teach us a lesson.

Auschwitz was carried out by fascist Germans, not local Arab farmers across the Mediterranean. Break off Wurttemberg and give that to the Jews.

Quote:The needs of some third world fascists who stone women to death, in general live by a mediaval code of law and can live in millions of square miles of other lands only come secondary to me in that regard.

Oh ok I get it now, so someone did you (or the Jews if you're not Jewish) wrong and so it's ok to inflict needless pain and suffering on completely innocent of the crime people? No that's bullshit. That makes you as bad as them (nazi's).

Quote:Should the Palestinians become more humane and civilised I might give them more leeway. Otherwise, no.

You wanna talk about civilized?
You support Israel because German people in the 1930's-1940's killed (or allowed it to happen) millions of Jewish people and so you see that as justification to kill and displace millions of people who had nothing to do with the holocaust. And now you condemn and ridicule those same people who were displaced because they simply do not roll over and allow this to happen to them? I support Israel but I totally understand where the likes of HAMAS are coming from.
You wanna talk civilized and yet all the "Arabs" have done is happen to live in the wrong place at the wrong time and defend their homeland like any other country/people would. Don't give me this civilized bullshit, Israel does NOT have the moral high ground on this simply because German people killed 6million of them.


Israel was only allowed to happen in the first place for the same reason Jews were killed. Because the local Muslim population was looked down upon and viewed as expendable. Israel is the last (or latest) in a long line of Western colonization that has inflicted a lot of suffering on local populaces. I would think that the Jewish population would be sympathetic to suffering at the hands of the West but apparently they were more than happy to inflict suffering on others simply because those people (Muslims) were of a different religion. That doesn't make them better, certainly not morally better and is open to criticism and ridicule. The holocaust was a terrible crime but it does not give Jews a free pass.

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23-03-2015, 07:51 PM
RE: Bibi is a cunt.
Quote:I'm sorry but that was almost wholly unintelligible.

What is "unintelligible"?

The part where I said social pecking orders are a bad way to set up government? Now again, race or religion how is it good to base government law on a holy book? Are you going to tell me the Talmud is not a holy book? Are you going to tell me no Jew doesn't value their Hebrew start?

Jew or Zion it still starts out with the Hebrews.

The same reason Islam bases their laws on the Koran. The same reason Europe suffered under the Dark Ages. Religious based laws. Israel and Christianity simply have had a longer time of sane people ignoring those religious laws. But it isn't like our Christians don't try to turn back the clock.

NEUTRAL laws that merely agree to protect everyone. Like "No religious test". But I don't buy it one bit that Israel wants it for a race state. They want that state because a sky hero told them it was theirs. Just as bad as when Christians claim our laws were ripped out of the bible.

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24-03-2015, 12:43 PM
RE: Bibi is a cunt.
As far as Israel's legitimacy is concerned, how would you feel about the US being designated by Europe as Native American and all of them being handed over control over the US due to their historical ties to the land? That is essentially what happened in Israel with the Jews. The fact that they were murdered by the Germans in WWII means nothing in terms of the legitimacy of that state, no more than it gives Romanis legitimate claim to running whichever small European country they choose (they too were murdered by Nazis).

I don't stand by the groups like HAMAS due to the actions they've taken, but Israel isn't necessarily in the right here and doesn't really have a legitimate claim to the land. If you trace back thousands of years any land any country today will have prior owners that have similar claims, if they weren't totally annihilated or assimilated to the point of no remaining distinction.

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24-03-2015, 09:09 PM
RE: Bibi is a cunt.
(24-03-2015 12:43 PM)Azaraith Wrote:  As far as Israel's legitimacy is concerned, how would you feel about the US being designated by Europe as Native American and all of them being handed over control over the US due to their historical ties to the land? That is essentially what happened in Israel with the Jews. The fact that they were murdered by the Germans in WWII means nothing in terms of the legitimacy of that state, no more than it gives Romanis legitimate claim to running whichever small European country they choose (they too were murdered by Nazis).

I don't stand by the groups like HAMAS due to the actions they've taken, but Israel isn't necessarily in the right here and doesn't really have a legitimate claim to the land. If you trace back thousands of years any land any country today will have prior owners that have similar claims, if they weren't totally annihilated or assimilated to the point of no remaining distinction.

Actually it would be more like if Harper decided decided that he was going to finally solve the American Indian issue by killing all the Indians. America supports Canada in this endeavor, although it is currently under Chinese occupation. China steps in and defeats Canada, deciding that the Indians should be given their own country. China, with the consent of most of the rest of the world, offers 20% of America, most of which is uninhabited land to the Indians to create their own state. China agees to end it's occupation of America and let things go back to normal with the 80%of their land still in their hands. Some would argue that Canada should have to give up the land, but the Indians don't want that land. Anyway, America rejects the partition plan outright and teams up with Mexico to crush the newly established Indian state. America publicly declares their objective to destroy the new Indian country and kill all the Indians. But despite all expectations, the Indians win and take about 40% of America, having actually gained land in the war. Things continue on until America opens up to allow Mexican troops, who make no secret of their intention to once again try to kill the Indian state and its people, attack the Indian state. The Indian state once again is victorious and now controls about 70% of America plus Baja California. The Americans are after all this time unable to put their state back together the way it used to be, and the Indians want to make peace with the Mexicans, so give Baja California back...

Anyway it not at all like you make it sound with the Jews just stealing the land of the poor Palestinians. The Jews have always been willing to work in peace with the Arabs, but the Arabs simply won't accept any deal that includes the existence of Israel.

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24-03-2015, 10:16 PM
RE: Bibi is a cunt.
In your metaphor, the Indians are still very much in the wrong - only they're backed by the Chinese also being in the wrong. America, being the nation being occupied and divvied up by the Chinese, would be reasonable in refusing to accept being divvied up. The Jews only are willing to "work in peace" so long as it means they keep their country and land, particularly the valuable bits. They wouldn't cede the country back to who had it before the Allies supposedly handed it to them - which isn't the full narrative, they'd been settling in the area in their Zionist movement long beforehand. They've made no secret of it either. They came by the tens of thousands before WWI even and hundreds of thousands during and following WWII. The efforts have been consistent even back to the 1400s... That part is like the Mexicans crossing over into the US illegally and deciding that 70% of the US was now theirs, getting their demands once the US was conquered by an ally of the Mexicans with greater power than the US (imaginary, considering Mexico is a US ally and the only contender would be China).

The Arabs won't accept any deal that includes the existence of Israel because they were dicked over by the West, who handed the country to the Jews (as you agreed) and wish to return to their prior state sovereignty. The Jews have a far lesser claim to the land than the Palestinians did, considering they'd not legitimately controlled the land for hundreds of years, rather than the 60-some-odd years the Israelis have controlled their state.

The land itself is seemingly worthless, though - it's the shared religious landmarks and history that cause both Jews and Muslims to covet that particular plot of desert... The solution given the current situation is far more difficult than having made the wiser choice in 1947 of *not creating Israel* or recognizing it's statehood. You can't exactly deport all of the Jews, nor would handing control of the territory to the Palestinians be sending the right message (which would be that terrorism works, blow up enough cafes and they'll give in). I say split it and create neutral zones for the particular religious sites, splitting it based on population, demographics, and land /resource value, as well as access to water/ports, etc. I can't say I'm a friend of either side, I just don't side with the Israelis because I don't see their position as legitimate, and I don't side with the Palestinians because I see their actions as barbaric (the Israelis aren't innocent of unwarranted violence either).

Edit: and looking at your sig, of course you'd be a fuckin' Zionist Rolleyes

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