Bible Archeology
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30-04-2018, 08:17 AM (This post was last modified: 30-04-2018 08:28 AM by Deltabravo.)
RE: Bible Archeology
(15-03-2017 09:58 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  An old list of quotes I assembled some years ago.

The Rise of Ancient Israel
A Symposium held at the Smithsonian Institution, october 26, 1991
Edited by Hershel Shanks
Biblical Archeology Society 1992
ISBN 1-880317-07-9

Hershel Shanks Page 5

"Well, archeology is no longer a crutch in the classic sense
of the conquest model. We simmply cannot posit a series
of destructions in Canaan that can rationally be identified
as the result of the Israelite conquest. Recently, our
archeological methodology has improved, we can date levels
much more securely, and more sites have been excavated. As a
result, we can longer say that archeology supports what we may
call the conquest model of Israel's emergence in Canaan."

Page 22.

"The purpose of the biblical account is not what we bow regard
as history. The purpose of the biblical account is to explain
god's acts in relationship to man on this earth. It really
isn't concerned with detailed accuracy. That is not its purpose.
....
Most biblical scholars do not accept the bible as literally true.
So what you have to do, is treat it almost like an archeological
tell, and excavate it as it were, and analyze it to see whether
what it says is historically true in the details, whether we
would accept it as historically accurate by modern historians'
standards."


William G. Dever
Page 28
"The word "history" does not even occur in the Hebrew bible.
The bible is not history and does not pretend to be. It is
literature, and a peculiar kind of *theological* literature
at that. It is a reconstruction of the past after the past was
essentially over, written, edited, and put together in
its present form, long after the collapse of of both the
Northern kingdon (Israel) and the Southern kingdom (Judah).
It therefore refracts as well as reflects the past.
The bible is a kind of revisionist history."

Page 29
"The conquest model is not subscribed to by most biblical
scholars today - certainly no one in the mainstream of scholarship -
and that's been true for some time. Moreover, there isn't a
single reputable professional archeologist who espouses the
conquest model in Israel, Europe or America. We don't need
to say any more about the conquest model. That's that.
(laughter) Not to be dogmatic about it or anything, but ...
(laughter)."

Page 84
"The literal biblical story of an Exodus from Egypt, and
a subsequent pan-Israelite conquest of Canaan can no longer
be salvaged, for all the wishful thinking in the world."


From Nomadism to Monarchy - Archeological & Historical Aspects
of Early Israel
Edited by Israel Finkelstein and Nadav Na'aman
Biblical Archeology Society 1994
ISBN 1-880317-20-6

The Conquest of Canaan - Nadav Na'aman

Page 249
"It is commonly accepted that the majority of conquest stories
in the book of Joshua are devoid of reality."

Page 250
"The entire concept of an invasion and conquest of
the highlands in the thirteenth-twelth centuries is
alien to historical reality. The Iron Age I settlement
process in the hill country is hardly illuminated by
the biblical conquest tradition."

"Or take the Patriarchal narratives. After a century of
exhaustive investigations, all respectable archaeologists
have given up hope of recovering any context that would
make Abraham, Isaac or Joseph credible "historical
figures". Virtually the last word was written by me
more than twenty years ago for a basic handbook of
biblical studies, "Israelite and Judean" history.1
And as we have seen, archaeological investigation of
Moses and the Exodus has similarly been discarded as
a fruitless pursuit. Indeed, the overwhelming archaeological
evidence today of largely indigenous origins for early
Israel leaves no room for an exodus from Egypt or a 40-year
pilgrimage through the Sinai wilderness."

William G. Dever "What Did the Biblical Writers Know &
When Did They Know It? - What Archaeology Can Tell Us
About the Reality of Ancient Israel"
2001 - William B. Eerdmans Publishing ISBN D-8028-4794-3

1
"The Patriarchal Traditions" in "Israelite and Judean
History", Ed. John H. Hayes and J. Maxwell Miller
Philadelphi: Westminister 1977


Check out Donald B. Redford's Egypt, Canaan and Israel during Ancient
Times, Princeton University Press.

"In fact, the Biblical writers are wholy and blissfully unaware of the
colossal discrepency to which their "history" and their "chronology
have given rise."
- Donald B. Redford


Donal B. Redford in "Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times has this to
say:

"[T]here are virtually no references to Israel, its congeneres, or Biblical
associates prior to the 1200 century B.C.; and beyond that point for four
centuries a mere half dozen allusions can be elicited."

The dearth of citations is also paralleled on the Biblical side by a similar
absence of any specific reference betraying a knowledge of Egypt or the
Levant during the second millenium B.C. There is no mention of an Egyptian
empire encompassing the eastern Mediterranean, no marching Egyptian armies
bent on punitive campaigns, no countermarching Hittite forces, no resident
governors, and no Egyptianized kinglets ruling Canaanite cities. On the
latest and most disastrous migration of the second millenium, that of the
Sea Peoples, the Hexateuch knows nothing: Genesis and Exodus find the
Philistines already settled in the land at the time of Abraham. There are
many errors and omissions, so that we cannot help to conclude that Biblical
writers of the seventh to sixth centuries B.C. lacked precise knowledge of
Egypt as recent as a few generations before their own time."

Redford then details the many tricks employed to fit the historical evidence
to the scriptures -- fascinating reading. He adds:

"Such manhandling of the evidence smacks or prestidigitation and numerology;
yet it has produced a shaky foundation on which a lamentable number of
'histories' of Israel have been written.

[...] If we examine what evidence we have for the Israelite appearance and
settlement in Canaan, we shall find that it falls in three disparate and
unequal bodies of material. In the first place we have the historical
traditions preserved in parts of Numbers, Joshua, and Judges, which far
outweighs in sheer volume the other two; second, the extra-Biblical textual
evidence; and finally, the archeological data of excavation.

[...] But even a cursory reading of this account [in Numbers, Joshua, and
Judges] is bound to excite suspicion. Cities with massive fortifications
fall easily to rustic nomads fresh off the desert a feat Pharaoh's armies
had great difficulty in accomplishing. [...] A detailed comparison of
this version of the Hebrew takeover of Palestine with the extra-Biblical
evidence totally discredits the former. Not only there is a complete
absence, as we have seen [in the previous chapters], in the records of the
Egyptian empire of any mention or allusion to such a whirlwind of
annihilation, but also Egyptian control of Canaan and the very cities Joshus
is supposed to have taken scarcely wavered during the entire period of the
Late Bronze Age. Far more damaging, however, than this argument from
silence is the archeological record.

[...] No one can prove or disprove that the federation 'Israel' originated
on Palestinian soil. No one can prove that the major component of that
federation had always existed on Palestinian soil. All that is know for
certain is that, some time during the fourth quarter of the thirteenth
century B.C., Egypt knew of a group, or political entity, called 'Israel'
and occupying part of Canaan; but whether the group had recently arrived or
taken shape is not stated in our sources."

So, it's all like a war movie. It happened, but not like in the movie.

Seems to me that the Old Testament is about PIE peoples of the Near East who include the ancestors of Greeks, Assyrians, Turks, Franks etc who all trace their origins back to Sumeria or whatever you want to call it. They were feudal and had a lot of very distasteful rituals and customs and the OT describes the collapse of the Old World Order which centered around that part of the world and was overrun by the Romans who then imposed Christianity to try to change the culture of the place.
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30-04-2018, 02:40 PM
RE: Bible Archeology
Another thing to notice about the exodus tall tale is the utter absence of Egyptians in Canaan. Canaan was under the control of Egypt for centuries, from periods of intense warfare to eras of relative benign neglect. Rameses III settled the defeated Sea Peoples there in his 8th year, and in his 25th year went to war in Syria. The collapse of Egypt was caused by a world wide drought that lasted some 80 years. In the reign of Rameses VI, the last Egyptian garrisons were withdrawn from Canaan.

The Exodus writers then were post Rameses VI. And had no information about earlier times. The exodus tall tale tells us the Israelites avoided going to Canaan by the coast to avoid the war like Philistines. Who only became conquerors of the coast post Rameses VI.

“It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction.”
― Harry G. Frankfurt, On Bullshit

Cheerful Charlie
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16-05-2018, 04:42 AM
RE: Bible Archeology
(30-04-2018 02:40 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  Another thing to notice about the exodus tall tale is the utter absence of Egyptians in Canaan. Canaan was under the control of Egypt for centuries, from periods of intense warfare to eras of relative benign neglect. Rameses III settled the defeated Sea Peoples there in his 8th year, and in his 25th year went to war in Syria. The collapse of Egypt was caused by a world wide drought that lasted some 80 years. In the reign of Rameses VI, the last Egyptian garrisons were withdrawn from Canaan.

The Exodus writers then were post Rameses VI. And had no information about earlier times. The exodus tall tale tells us the Israelites avoided going to Canaan by the coast to avoid the war like Philistines. Who only became conquerors of the coast post Rameses VI.

All this in addition to the Phoenicians.

I am skeptical of chronology of the Old Testament Babylonian Exile https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20...195333.htm and the New Testament during Jesus time. https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewis...-finish-it

My favorite Bible mystery is the Mystery Tradition inherited from the Egyptians to the Romans to Christianity (thereby Judaism). Who did that? Who made that decision?
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17-05-2018, 09:01 AM
RE: Bible Archeology
(28-04-2018 02:09 PM)jmart90 Wrote:  This is speculation, but finding the dead sea scrolls was probably a hoax and "found" just in time for the Soviet Union and America to destabilize the world. Leaders are, and always have been tricky, homicidal, egotistical jerks.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were found about the same time that both Hitler died and Israel was formed. Thank you, Jesus.


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17-05-2018, 09:29 AM
RE: Bible Archeology
(16-05-2018 04:42 AM)Nero Wrote:  
(30-04-2018 02:40 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  Another thing to notice about the exodus tall tale is the utter absence of Egyptians in Canaan. Canaan was under the control of Egypt for centuries, from periods of intense warfare to eras of relative benign neglect. Rameses III settled the defeated Sea Peoples there in his 8th year, and in his 25th year went to war in Syria. The collapse of Egypt was caused by a world wide drought that lasted some 80 years. In the reign of Rameses VI, the last Egyptian garrisons were withdrawn from Canaan.

The Exodus writers then were post Rameses VI. And had no information about earlier times. The exodus tall tale tells us the Israelites avoided going to Canaan by the coast to avoid the war like Philistines. Who only became conquerors of the coast post Rameses VI.

All this in addition to the Phoenicians.

I am skeptical of chronology of the Old Testament Babylonian Exile https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20...195333.htm and the New Testament during Jesus time. https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewis...-finish-it

My favorite Bible mystery is the Mystery Tradition inherited from the Egyptians to the Romans to Christianity (thereby Judaism). Who did that? Who made that decision?


Speaking of the Phoenicians. Isn't the Phoenician alphabet the writing system that the Hebrew alphabet is based on? If I recall correctly the Phoenician alphabet goes back to 1050 BC or so. If that's the case how could the Hebrews even write the Exodus story prior to 1050 BC?

Someone correct me if I'm in error.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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17-05-2018, 11:14 PM
RE: Bible Archeology
(17-05-2018 09:29 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(16-05-2018 04:42 AM)Nero Wrote:  All this in addition to the Phoenicians.

I am skeptical of chronology of the Old Testament Babylonian Exile https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20...195333.htm and the New Testament during Jesus time. https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewis...-finish-it

My favorite Bible mystery is the Mystery Tradition inherited from the Egyptians to the Romans to Christianity (thereby Judaism). Who did that? Who made that decision?


Speaking of the Phoenicians. Isn't the Phoenician alphabet the writing system that the Hebrew alphabet is based on? If I recall correctly the Phoenician alphabet goes back to 1050 BC or so. If that's the case how could the Hebrews even write the Exodus story prior to 1050 BC?

Someone correct me if I'm in error.

You are correct. I suspect some fundies will not accept that fact, or will tell us the the ancient Israelites who could write at the time of the exodus wrote in Egyptian demotic.

“It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction.”
― Harry G. Frankfurt, On Bullshit

Cheerful Charlie
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18-05-2018, 06:38 AM
RE: Bible Archeology
(17-05-2018 11:14 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  You are correct. I suspect some fundies will not accept that fact, or will tell us the the ancient Israelites who could write at the time of the exodus wrote in Egyptian demotic.

I don't think any of them will. Why accept a fact that goes against a deeply held world view based on rejecting facts?
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18-05-2018, 10:13 AM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2018 12:13 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Bible Archeology
(17-05-2018 11:14 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  
(17-05-2018 09:29 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Speaking of the Phoenicians. Isn't the Phoenician alphabet the writing system that the Hebrew alphabet is based on? If I recall correctly the Phoenician alphabet goes back to 1050 BC or so. If that's the case how could the Hebrews even write the Exodus story prior to 1050 BC?

Someone correct me if I'm in error.

You are correct. I suspect some fundies will not accept that fact, or will tell us the the ancient Israelites who could write at the time of the exodus wrote in Egyptian demotic.

The Bible itself (yeah I know Weeping ) tells us when (approximately) the story of the Exodus was written. There is NO WHERE in the Bible or out of the Bible, before the introduction of them, in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah in the Fall Festival as described in Nehemiah, that a "Torah of Moses" was ever mentioned, (Nehemiah was an official in the court of the Persian emperor) ... and he and Ezra returned from Babylon with two things ... the authorization for Nehemiah to rule *in the name* of the Persian emperor, and Ezra with the Torah of Moses in his backpack. The Torah of Moses (the first 4 books in the Bible) was never once mentioned in human history before that. Obviously (with all the Babylonian references and themes and gods) it was written in Babylon, by Judean priests, with access to the traditions, supervised by the Persians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Nehemiah Artaxerxes was sending the Jews back to the former TWO kingdoms to serve as a buffer state between him and the invading Greeks. In order to get this done, he needed Israel to be a "cohesive" / functioning state ... and in order to do that, he had to give them a "national history", a legal system, and all the other cultural premises and assumptions a functioning state relied upon. For a few hundred years Hebrew culture had been in disarray, (after a relatively very short time as two kingdoms, and VERY short time as one kingdom). Atraxerxes gave the land he (his empire) had conquered to the Hebrews. He is responsible more than any god or person, for Israel .... both it's land and it's (made up) history.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
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18-05-2018, 01:36 PM
RE: Bible Archeology
(18-05-2018 10:13 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(17-05-2018 11:14 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  You are correct. I suspect some fundies will not accept that fact, or will tell us the the ancient Israelites who could write at the time of the exodus wrote in Egyptian demotic.

The Bible itself (yeah I know Weeping ) tells us when (approximately) the story of the Exodus was written. There is NO WHERE in the Bible or out of the Bible, before the introduction of them, in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah in the Fall Festival as described in Nehemiah, that a "Torah of Moses" was ever mentioned, (Nehemiah was an official in the court of the Persian emperor) ... and he and Ezra returned from Babylon with two things ... the authorization for Nehemiah to rule *in the name* of the Persian emperor, and Ezra with the Torah of Moses in his backpack. The Torah of Moses (the first 4 books in the Bible) was never once mentioned in human history before that. Obviously (with all the Babylonian references and themes and gods) it was written in Babylon, by Judean priests, with access to the traditions, supervised by the Persians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Nehemiah Artaxerxes was sending the Jews back to the former TWO kingdoms to serve as a buffer state between him and the invading Greeks. In order to get this done, he needed Israel to be a "cohesive" / functioning state ... and in order to do that, he had to give them a "national history", a legal system, and all the other cultural premises and assumptions a functioning state relied upon. For a few hundred years Hebrew culture had been in disarray, (after a relatively very short time as two kingdoms, and VERY short time as one kingdom). Atraxerxes gave the land he (his empire) had conquered to the Hebrews. He is responsible more than any god or person, for Israel .... both it's land and it's (made up) history.

(18-05-2018 10:13 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The Torah of Moses (the first 4 books in the Bible) was never once mentioned in human history before that.

Well, you know that and I know that but Christians think it was written when it claims to have been written not in the 5th century. Pointing out the Phoenician alphabet problem doesn't sway them nor does the similar earlier story of Sargon of Akkad... so it's willful ignorance for the win, Alex.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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