Bible Prophecy: Israel becoming a nation
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14-11-2013, 11:56 AM
RE: Bible Prophecy: Israel becoming a nation
When it comes to Bible prophesy, I approach it this way:

If there was any truth in it, then how is it that a prophet could see into the future? According to believers, the answer of course is God. God supposedly knows everything that will happen and imparts some of that knowledge to the prophets. Why? I have no idea - it's kind of strange frankly to think that a real god would waste time with such frivolities - but I would make a guess that he wanted the prophets or maybe all of humanity to know about the future events. Why? Again, I have no clue here, but I might guess that it somehow proves he is God and demonstrates his ability.

Really? Blink

First, is this the best he can do to demonstrate his ability? He communicates through a prophet, who everyone could potentially doubt, with future information that the people in those times would never be able to witness in order to discern the accuracy of the foreseen events. Useless for them and, for us in later times, useless as well since we can't even agree collectively that these really were prophesies.

Second, is this the best he can do (yeah, again)? The prophesies are full of vague descriptions the meanings of which we are left to scratch our heads and guess about. For example, with this supposed Israel foretelling, why was 1948 never specifically mentioned? Why was "Israel" never specifically named? This is "God" we are talking about. Of course, if these were really from God, he would know those things. So why not mention them?

Common sense tells us that a real god as conceived by Christians, Jews, and Islamists, would have such greatness that he wouldn't waste his time over such trivialities. If he wanted to communicate something, he would do so - very, very, clearly and none of us would be having this discussion about whether this was real prophesy. We would know.

Finally, I reread the verses mentioned in the OP and found the only one that really pointed to a country forming in one day was the last one. But, reading that in context, if the one mention of "country" wasn't there, I probably never would have read it that way. It sounds more like they are talking about a baby being born. I'm sure it's supposed to be poetic prose, but again, any god would take care not to be so confusing.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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14-11-2013, 12:12 PM
RE: Bible Prophecy: Israel becoming a nation
(14-11-2013 11:25 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  So you will accuse me of not responding to the scholarly viewpoint yet you don't want to debate the scholarly viewpoint with me? Please explain.

Again, since I have a Bachelor's of Religion, I've had to craft papers on theological subjects and historical subjects. I can post samples if you promise not to plagiarize my work!

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(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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14-11-2013, 02:25 PM
RE: Bible Prophecy: Israel becoming a nation
(14-11-2013 11:56 AM)Impulse Wrote:  When it comes to Bible prophesy, I approach it this way:

If there was any truth in it, then how is it that a prophet could see into the future? According to believers, the answer of course is God. God supposedly knows everything that will happen and imparts some of that knowledge to the prophets. Why? I have no idea - it's kind of strange frankly to think that a real god would waste time with such frivolities - but I would make a guess that he wanted the prophets or maybe all of humanity to know about the future events. Why? Again, I have no clue here, but I might guess that it somehow proves he is God and demonstrates his ability.

Really? Blink

First, is this the best he can do to demonstrate his ability? He communicates through a prophet, who everyone could potentially doubt, with future information that the people in those times would never be able to witness in order to discern the accuracy of the foreseen events. Useless for them and, for us in later times, useless as well since we can't even agree collectively that these really were prophesies.

Second, is this the best he can do (yeah, again)? The prophesies are full of vague descriptions the meanings of which we are left to scratch our heads and guess about. For example, with this supposed Israel foretelling, why was 1948 never specifically mentioned? Why was "Israel" never specifically named? This is "God" we are talking about. Of course, if these were really from God, he would know those things. So why not mention them?

Common sense tells us that a real god as conceived by Christians, Jews, and Islamists, would have such greatness that he wouldn't waste his time over such trivialities. If he wanted to communicate something, he would do so - very, very, clearly and none of us would be having this discussion about whether this was real prophesy. We would know.

Finally, I reread the verses mentioned in the OP and found the only one that really pointed to a country forming in one day was the last one. But, reading that in context, if the one mention of "country" wasn't there, I probably never would have read it that way. It sounds more like they are talking about a baby being born. I'm sure it's supposed to be poetic prose, but again, any god would take care not to be so confusing.

This is an important point you've brought forth since prophecy is both an excellent example under discussion and fulfilled prophecy a hallmark of the true faith, Christianity.

Why does every freethinker say this about prophecy but ignore the **hidden god--revealed only to initiates** context?

Prophecy is one of those things you either scoff at or dig into further because you want to scoff or want to know truth. Yes, as I read on an atheist blog again today, God COULD appear today on network TV with the lightning and thunder and purple-orange rain from the sky, etc. but the Bible gives the apologetic that He is hidden from us and vice versa because of human sin. Saying God can do something is different than affirming He has a will--I don't think this will is "mysterious" except to nonbelievers.

If you want to know the truth, you can research prophecies from atheist and Christian perspectives and decide and sift the evidence. If you want to continue to complain that prophecies might be true but not the best way to do God's work, you'll have to deal with God on that one yourself. I will not be able to support your efforts on that day.
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14-11-2013, 02:29 PM
RE: Bible Prophecy: Israel becoming a nation
(14-11-2013 12:12 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(14-11-2013 11:25 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  So you will accuse me of not responding to the scholarly viewpoint yet you don't want to debate the scholarly viewpoint with me? Please explain.

Again, since I have a Bachelor's of Religion, I've had to craft papers on theological subjects and historical subjects. I can post samples if you promise not to plagiarize my work!

[Image: 115242.gif]

How many degrees do you have, or are you still in school?

You won't find this text online elsewhere since it is my own:

Athanasius of Alexandria is said to be the 4th century biographer/panegyrist of the Life of St. Antony. He clearly regards Antony as “great” for his anti-Arian stance, something unsurprising as a young Athanasius himself was tapped by Constantine to help lead the Nicene Council of 325.

Further, Antony never communed with Meletian schismatics, those who insisted Jesus and God are alike but not fully one essence. The devout Antony had great discernment of doctrine, “knowing their wickedness and apostasy from the beginning”. Nor did Antony dabble in the Manichean syncretistic heresies, Athanasius recounts, unless it was to alert the Manicheans to piety, believing and asserting that indulging them “was harmful and destructive to the soul.” [chapter 68]

Here's some more--riveting reading, I know:

Although the Torah forbids human sacrifice, the martyrs also take it on themselves that they are righteous human offerings, as Abraham was righteous and correct in offering Issac on the altar.

Unlike modern or revisionist Judaism and its lack of afterlife or some kind of return for the dead to “soul sleep”, the martyrs of Mainz await a glorious afterlife, like their Christian martyr counterparts, where Solomon writes of them that “We, our souls in paradise, shall continue to live eternally, in the great shining reflection [of the divine glory]" and they are like the rebellious [to pagan Rome] Rabbi Akiba, “…He exchanges the world of darkness for the world of light, the world of trouble for the world of joy, and the world that passes away for the world that lasts for all eternity.

And here's so mo' for yo':

The author/editor of The Martyrdom (Tertullian of Carthage2) is writing to affirm to his readers that they can be encouraged as Christians who might experience persecution by the story of Perpetua (“forever, eternal”) and Felicity (“bliss, great happiness”). He begins, “If ancient illustrations of faith which both testify to God's grace and tend to man's edification are collected in writing, so that by the perusal of them, as if by the reproduction of the facts, as well God may be honoured, as man may be strengthened; why should not new instances be also collected, that shall be equally suitable for both purposes…” [RWCH, pg. 30] and he seems to admit soon after that the stories may be in this vein apocryphal, saying that “…Although in their present time they are esteemed of less authority, by reason of the presumed veneration for antiquity…” [RWCH pg. 30]

While still a young catechumen, it seems enough to call upon the divine name for Perpetua to (gently) resist her father. Merely stating she is now a Christian is enough to keep her father from ripping her eyes from her skull to find he is instead ensnared by his own demonic struggle as he “went away overcome by the devil’s arguments.” [RWCH pg. 31] The Roman father or paterfamilias could slay his infant children at will3 and Perpetua’s father would have had little trouble convincing authorities his adult daughter’s status as a Christian, not given to the Roman gods or to the rhythms of the seasons and culture, was intolerable for his fellow citizens to endure.

Don't worry, I studied Islam, Hinduism, etc. and BS atheism when I was in school as well as Christianity and Judaism.
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14-11-2013, 02:33 PM
RE: Bible Prophecy: Israel becoming a nation
Quote:fulfilled prophecy a hallmark of the true faith, Christianity

You did all notice the lying Christian FAILED to name ONE of the converts who left TTA.

"Fulfilled prophecy" is not a "hallmark" of anything. There is nothing in the creeds of Christianity that says it's a "hallmark" of anything. None of the mainline (non-fundie) branches. affirm the necessity of buying into this fallacy.

Using a cultural fallacy to affirm, or as a criteria of determination, of what is "true" is high irony, indeed.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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15-11-2013, 11:51 AM
RE: Bible Prophecy: Israel becoming a nation
Quote:You did all notice the lying Christian FAILED to name ONE of the converts who left TTA.

You do know the site has lurkers and guests, and that I can receive PMs, right?

Quote:"Fulfilled prophecy" is not a "hallmark" of anything. There is nothing in the creeds of Christianity that says it's a "hallmark" of anything. None of the mainline (non-fundie) branches. affirm the necessity of buying into this fallacy.

Using a cultural fallacy to affirm, or as a criteria of determination, of what is "true" is high irony, indeed.

The irony is you are yet to answer my question as to how you can accuse me of refusing to debate the scholars' text you've cited when I've proposed a debate format to you and you refused to debate me. That puts you somewhere between childish and deliberately lying.
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15-11-2013, 12:03 PM
RE: Bible Prophecy: Israel becoming a nation
(14-11-2013 02:25 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(14-11-2013 11:56 AM)Impulse Wrote:  When it comes to Bible prophesy, I approach it this way:

If there was any truth in it, then how is it that a prophet could see into the future? According to believers, the answer of course is God. God supposedly knows everything that will happen and imparts some of that knowledge to the prophets. Why? I have no idea - it's kind of strange frankly to think that a real god would waste time with such frivolities - but I would make a guess that he wanted the prophets or maybe all of humanity to know about the future events. Why? Again, I have no clue here, but I might guess that it somehow proves he is God and demonstrates his ability.

Really? Blink

First, is this the best he can do to demonstrate his ability? He communicates through a prophet, who everyone could potentially doubt, with future information that the people in those times would never be able to witness in order to discern the accuracy of the foreseen events. Useless for them and, for us in later times, useless as well since we can't even agree collectively that these really were prophesies.

Second, is this the best he can do (yeah, again)? The prophesies are full of vague descriptions the meanings of which we are left to scratch our heads and guess about. For example, with this supposed Israel foretelling, why was 1948 never specifically mentioned? Why was "Israel" never specifically named? This is "God" we are talking about. Of course, if these were really from God, he would know those things. So why not mention them?

Common sense tells us that a real god as conceived by Christians, Jews, and Islamists, would have such greatness that he wouldn't waste his time over such trivialities. If he wanted to communicate something, he would do so - very, very, clearly and none of us would be having this discussion about whether this was real prophesy. We would know.

Finally, I reread the verses mentioned in the OP and found the only one that really pointed to a country forming in one day was the last one. But, reading that in context, if the one mention of "country" wasn't there, I probably never would have read it that way. It sounds more like they are talking about a baby being born. I'm sure it's supposed to be poetic prose, but again, any god would take care not to be so confusing.

This is an important point you've brought forth since prophecy is both an excellent example under discussion and fulfilled prophecy a hallmark of the true faith, Christianity.

Why does every freethinker say this about prophecy but ignore the **hidden god--revealed only to initiates** context?

Prophecy is one of those things you either scoff at or dig into further because you want to scoff or want to know truth. Yes, as I read on an atheist blog again today, God COULD appear today on network TV with the lightning and thunder and purple-orange rain from the sky, etc. but the Bible gives the apologetic that He is hidden from us and vice versa because of human sin. Saying God can do something is different than affirming He has a will--I don't think this will is "mysterious" except to nonbelievers.

If you want to know the truth, you can research prophecies from atheist and Christian perspectives and decide and sift the evidence. If you want to continue to complain that prophecies might be true but not the best way to do God's work, you'll have to deal with God on that one yourself. I will not be able to support your efforts on that day.
I don't "ignore the **hidden god--revealed only to initiates** context", I dismiss it as nonsensical. If God has something to communicate, how does it make sense that he would communicate it only to some? He wants us to worship and obey him, but will only tell a few how to do so? Does that really make sense to you?

You say he is hidden because of human sin? And, how does that make sense? Let's see, now what was that sin? Oh yeah, original sin. That's the one where God set up humans for failure, put them in the best place to fail, and when they "failed" by merely eating a single forbidden piece of fruit, he punished them with disease, hunger, tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, earthquakes, droughts, disabilities at birth, animals feeding on other animals, and countless other consequences - one of which you claim is that he is now hidden from us. Well friggin' no wonder he hides! He must be infinitely embarrassed by such a colossal temper tantrum!

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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15-11-2013, 03:50 PM
RE: Bible Prophecy: Israel becoming a nation
(15-11-2013 12:03 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(14-11-2013 02:25 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  This is an important point you've brought forth since prophecy is both an excellent example under discussion and fulfilled prophecy a hallmark of the true faith, Christianity.

Why does every freethinker say this about prophecy but ignore the **hidden god--revealed only to initiates** context?

Prophecy is one of those things you either scoff at or dig into further because you want to scoff or want to know truth. Yes, as I read on an atheist blog again today, God COULD appear today on network TV with the lightning and thunder and purple-orange rain from the sky, etc. but the Bible gives the apologetic that He is hidden from us and vice versa because of human sin. Saying God can do something is different than affirming He has a will--I don't think this will is "mysterious" except to nonbelievers.

If you want to know the truth, you can research prophecies from atheist and Christian perspectives and decide and sift the evidence. If you want to continue to complain that prophecies might be true but not the best way to do God's work, you'll have to deal with God on that one yourself. I will not be able to support your efforts on that day.
I don't "ignore the **hidden god--revealed only to initiates** context", I dismiss it as nonsensical. If God has something to communicate, how does it make sense that he would communicate it only to some? He wants us to worship and obey him, but will only tell a few how to do so? Does that really make sense to you?

You say he is hidden because of human sin? And, how does that make sense? Let's see, now what was that sin? Oh yeah, original sin. That's the one where God set up humans for failure, put them in the best place to fail, and when they "failed" by merely eating a single forbidden piece of fruit, he punished them with disease, hunger, tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, earthquakes, droughts, disabilities at birth, animals feeding on other animals, and countless other consequences - one of which you claim is that he is now hidden from us. Well friggin' no wonder he hides! He must be infinitely embarrassed by such a colossal temper tantrum!

In the first paragraph, you asked me a question. In the second, you setup your own rhetorical answer.

Let me know if you want me to actually answer your question of the first paragraph.

Thanks.
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15-11-2013, 04:20 PM (This post was last modified: 15-11-2013 04:43 PM by viole.)
RE: Bible Prophecy: Israel becoming a nation
(12-11-2013 10:30 PM)DoubtingDragon Wrote:  Here I am again, trying to come up with answers or thoughts in debating one of my family members who is a devout x'stian. One thing she harps on is bible prophecy. Now then, when she claims that the new testament is fulfilling old testament prophecies, I very easily dismiss this. It would be quite easy for a new testament writer to read old testament stuff and make up prophecies. There is no way to verify, so I can easily brush these off.

But the one that does trip me up is Ezekiel 37:11-13, The re-gathering of the Jews into their homeland and Ezekiel 37:10-14; Isaiah 43:5, 6; 66:7-8 The rebirth of Israel as a nation in 1948, in one day.

My question is about this whole Israel becoming a nation again in 1948. She claims this is prophecy fulfilled.

I would appreciate some thoughts on this please.
Drinking Beverage

What is interesting is passage 21:

21 and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. [b]They will be my people, and I will be their God.

Now, if the prophecy has been fulfilled, then God is the Jew's God. God (or whomever) does not make a half prophecy here (unless we cherry pick only what fits): the day they will be reunited in Israel, is also the day they will know their real God.

But how is that possible if the Jews do not believe that Jesus is God? And if Jesus is God how can God be their God, if they do not accept Him?

It is obvious that this does not make sense.

God also says that He will save them from their sinful backsliding after the reunion in the promised land. Does that mean that you can be cleansed from sin even without accepting Jesus as the Christ?

That should not not make sense to any Christian, either, I am afraid.

In other words: if the prophecy is meant to be fulfilled, then Jesus is not God. Even worse: he could be an idol or a vile image.

Ciao

- viole
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15-11-2013, 04:21 PM
RE: Bible Prophecy: Israel becoming a nation
(15-11-2013 11:51 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:You did all notice the lying Christian FAILED to name ONE of the converts who left TTA.

You do know the site has lurkers and guests, and that I can receive PMs, right?

Quote:"Fulfilled prophecy" is not a "hallmark" of anything. There is nothing in the creeds of Christianity that says it's a "hallmark" of anything. None of the mainline (non-fundie) branches. affirm the necessity of buying into this fallacy.

Using a cultural fallacy to affirm, or as a criteria of determination, of what is "true" is high irony, indeed.

The irony is you are yet to answer my question as to how you can accuse me of refusing to debate the scholars' text you've cited when I've proposed a debate format to you and you refused to debate me. That puts you somewhere between childish and deliberately lying.

Are you referring to your grotesquely dishonest offer of a 'debate' where you get to the rules set as you go?

You are intellectually dishonest, nothing more than a would-be cheat.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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