Bible prophecy
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26-12-2013, 10:41 AM (This post was last modified: 26-12-2013 10:53 AM by BlackMason.)
Bible prophecy
I never know what to say or think when I encounter "The bible is real because of the prophecies it has". I used to be part of a bible study group. We used to gather on Friday evenings because it was the sabbath. See? I was such a good little Jesus boy! Damn, I remember telling my now ex that her aunt was going to hell because she killed herself after her husband died. You see I'm arrogant and stubborn. I'm trying to be better though. I was so sure when I told her. Let's not get side tracked.

Apparently scripture reveals itself. You need to refer to other scriptures to understand other scriptures. The support for this view is found in Isaiah 28:10. Precept upon precept line upon line. I'll explain a little how this works for clearer understanding. In one scripture someone will have a dream about water. The interpretation will be the water was a metaphor for people. Therefore everywhere appropriate water = people.

I remember the book of Daniel in particular. Interesting book that. Daniel has a dream of a big statue of a man made of different materials. The different materials represented the different kingdoms that were and are to come. The head was made of gold and this represented Great Babylon. The breasts and arms were made of silver. This represented the Medo-Persian Empire. The belly and thighs were made of brass. This indicated Greece and it's turn at being a super power of the world. The legs were made of iron and the feet were iron mixed with clay. The iron made reference to Rome.

This is the real succession of the kingdoms of this world. So Rome or something in Rome has a major role in the events of today since the feet (where we are in current times) are mixed with iron. The conclusion was the catholic church and the vatican. We carried on the study and found that the terrible beast that blasphemes and will seek to change the times and laws of god is none other than the catholic church.

What you mean? Well seeking to change the times is achieved by how the catholic church changed observance of the sabbath on Saturday to Sunday being observed instead. Sunday is the first day of the week. Changing the laws is achieved by how the catholic church has their own set of ten commandments. This can be seen in the catholic catechism. They removed the commandment thou shalt not make a graven image. Catholics love their statues after all. The last commandment is split into two to make up for the lost one. Thou shalt not covet your neighbours house being number 9 and thou shalt not covet your neighbours wife being 10. The blasphemy part comes from the catholic practise of confession where a man forgives another for sin. Jesus almost got his ass handed to him for that.

Has anyone debunked this coz it still has me scratching my head at times.

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
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26-12-2013, 10:44 AM
RE: Bible prophecy
I'm pretty sure you've lost your mind. But rock on with your crazy self. lol

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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26-12-2013, 10:56 AM
RE: Bible prophecy
(26-12-2013 10:44 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  I'm pretty sure you've lost your mind. But rock on with your crazy self. lol

I'm going to hell like most here. I just don't know how to debunk this prophecy stuff fairly. I don't wanna engage in confirmation bias.

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
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26-12-2013, 11:26 AM (This post was last modified: 26-12-2013 12:28 PM by Paleophyte.)
RE: Bible prophecy
Almost all religions make the same claim. Does this make them equally valid? Should Christians abandon their faith and revitalize the Greek pantheon because of Casandra and the Oracle of Delphi?

Prophecy is dead easy to fulfill if you know what it is before hand. All you have to do is go out and fulfill the specified conditions. Saddam Hussein tried to"rebuild Babylon" for exactly that reason and he's just one of the most recent in a long line who've tried similar tricks. This is infinitely easier with religions that are eager to twist meanings to "fulfill" the conditions of prophecy that haven't been met. Jesus' lineage is traced back through Joseph despite the fact that he was sired by God and/or an angel so that they can link him to the Davidian kings. Jesus isn't a descendant of David (prophesy fail!) unless you use the lineage of a man he was unrelated to (Joseph was his "Earthy father" which is a load of religious BS that we'll use to tie Jesus to this otherwise insignificant bit player in a lame attempt to fulfill prophecy).

The easiest way to fulfill prophesy is with after the fact editing. Jesus was never crowned King of the Jews? No problem, we'll just tinker with scripture. You don't even have to be alive to fulfill prophecy this way. Nothing easier or less meaningful.

Of course there's always my favorite way. Blithely ignoring prophecies that were never fulfilled. Matthew 24:34 is a favorite. Oops, no Apocalypse.
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26-12-2013, 12:21 PM
RE: Bible prophecy
Here is why some prophesies are unreliable.

It is easy to edit the "prophesy" in after the fact, and claim an event was predicted. This can be done with an overabundance of enthusiasm for some figure or belief.

True believers will do the hard work of seeing the prophesy fulfilled. Like that business of water = people. Does the prophesy actually say that? No. But the true believer can force some interpretation onto the prophesy that is arguably true, and thus claim the prophesy fulfilled. Confirmation bias doesn't prove anything to anyone save the desperate.

Sometimes prophesies predict something that anyone could have predicted, or which is subjective. For example, a prediction that there would be a time of war is easy to make, because there is always war somewhere. Similarly, a prediction that there will be a time when men lose their obedience to God is easy to predict, because there will always be some cynic who believes that people have turned away from the true faith, even if they're as faithful as they've ever been.

Thomas Paine (a deist) did a thorough analysis of prophesy in the Bible in "The Age of Reason". I highly recommend it.
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26-12-2013, 03:55 PM
RE: Bible prophecy
The entire enterprise of "fulfilled prophesy" is built on a fundamental fallacy.
The role of a prophet was not to tell the future, but to advise the people of their OWN time. LATER, it was changed. Fortune-telling and divination were forbidden.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid257278

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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26-12-2013, 09:54 PM
RE: Bible prophecy
First off, why do you even care? It's nonsense, so why even trouble your mind with such a steaming load of manure? Surely, there are more important issues in the world--poverty, war, famine--that would be a better use of your time and energy.

Regarding debunking so-called "prophecies," I posted the below reply on my Facebook page the other day, when someone posted this question on my Spock meme:
Quote:I would be interested to find out what you consider to be Messianic and non-Messianic prophecies, so here goes (I'm quoting from the New International Version). When Jesus is recorded in Luke 7:19-20 as responding to John the Baptist's followers' question "Are you the one who was to come...?" He quotes Isiaiah 29:18-19, Isa 35:5-6, Isa 42:18 and Isa 61:1.


The first thing to be aware of is that the Jewish notion of a messiah was not one who would be a divine figure. Messiah simply means ‘the anointed one,’ as the kings of Judah were anointed with oils. After the Babylonians executed the last king of Judah (2 Kings 25:7) and exiled the elite, Jews came to expect that God would keep his promise to David, that one of his line would always rule over Judah. 2 Samuel 7:16 (“And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established forever.”)

However, given the last Davidic heir was executed it was not a realistic expectation (enter supernatural wishful thinking of divine intervention) that a mortal king of the line of David would arise to release the Jews from foreign oppression; which is all the messiah was to do, free them from subservience to foreign rulers and re-establish the (independent) kingdom of the chosen people. Hence, why all the cherry-picked Hebrew Bible references to force-fit Jesus into the narrative: born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, which is not a prophecy for the coming of Jesus 800 years later, but as noted above in the original Spock meme, it also contextually belongs to the period of the Assyrian invasion and hopes for the coming of a strong, warrior king); of the House of David (the complicated and contradictory lineages listed in Matthew 1 and Luke 3); etc.

Second, the book of Isaiah, over three parts, are references to BOTH the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions. While your first citation, Isaiah 29, is within the sections prophesying for a messiah to free Israel, again it must be understood contextually in the times they were written: applying to deliverance from the Assyrians 800 years before Jesus, and not calling for a divine sacrifice. Isaiah 35 shifts to Babylon, written (post hoc) after the Persians had defeated the Babylonians (about 300 years AFTER the events described in the first third of Isaiah), and discusses the (already happened) return of the faithful to Jerusalem. Isaiah 42 likens Cyrus the Great (of Persia!) as the messiah, for freeing the Jews from Babylonian exile and allowing them to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem.

Finally, the “one who is to come” reference you mention in Luke 7 was taken from Malachi 3:1 (“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.”). The same reference was blended with Isaiah 40:3 (“The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God;”) and used in Mark 1:2-3 (“As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.”)

Now, what Christians, conveniently, overlook is that the Malachi passage is NOT a prophecy for the coming of Jesus or a messianic figure. Malachi 4:5-6 (“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”) Additionally, the Hebrew Bible, again conveniently, was rearranged in the Christian Old Testament to move Malachi from its place in the middle of the Jewish canon to the end of the OT so that it would preface the start of the New Testament and the manufactured “coming of Jesus as foretold.” Except it wasn’t Jesus who was foretold.

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26-12-2013, 11:46 PM
RE: Bible prophecy
(26-12-2013 09:54 PM)Diogenes of Mayberry Wrote:  First off, why do you even care? It's nonsense, so why even trouble your mind with such a steaming load of manure? Surely, there are more important issues in the world--poverty, war, famine--that would be a better use of your time and energy.

Regarding debunking so-called "prophecies," I posted the below reply on my Facebook page the other day, when someone posted this question on my Spock meme:
Quote:I would be interested to find out what you consider to be Messianic and non-Messianic prophecies, so here goes (I'm quoting from the New International Version). When Jesus is recorded in Luke 7:19-20 as responding to John the Baptist's followers' question "Are you the one who was to come...?" He quotes Isiaiah 29:18-19, Isa 35:5-6, Isa 42:18 and Isa 61:1.


The first thing to be aware of is that the Jewish notion of a messiah was not one who would be a divine figure. Messiah simply means ‘the anointed one,’ as the kings of Judah were anointed with oils. After the Babylonians executed the last king of Judah (2 Kings 25:7) and exiled the elite, Jews came to expect that God would keep his promise to David, that one of his line would always rule over Judah. 2 Samuel 7:16 (“And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established forever.”)

However, given the last Davidic heir was executed it was not a realistic expectation (enter supernatural wishful thinking of divine intervention) that a mortal king of the line of David would arise to release the Jews from foreign oppression; which is all the messiah was to do, free them from subservience to foreign rulers and re-establish the (independent) kingdom of the chosen people. Hence, why all the cherry-picked Hebrew Bible references to force-fit Jesus into the narrative: born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, which is not a prophecy for the coming of Jesus 800 years later, but as noted above in the original Spock meme, it also contextually belongs to the period of the Assyrian invasion and hopes for the coming of a strong, warrior king); of the House of David (the complicated and contradictory lineages listed in Matthew 1 and Luke 3); etc.

Second, the book of Isaiah, over three parts, are references to BOTH the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions. While your first citation, Isaiah 29, is within the sections prophesying for a messiah to free Israel, again it must be understood contextually in the times they were written: applying to deliverance from the Assyrians 800 years before Jesus, and not calling for a divine sacrifice. Isaiah 35 shifts to Babylon, written (post hoc) after the Persians had defeated the Babylonians (about 300 years AFTER the events described in the first third of Isaiah), and discusses the (already happened) return of the faithful to Jerusalem. Isaiah 42 likens Cyrus the Great (of Persia!) as the messiah, for freeing the Jews from Babylonian exile and allowing them to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem.

Finally, the “one who is to come” reference you mention in Luke 7 was taken from Malachi 3:1 (“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.”). The same reference was blended with Isaiah 40:3 (“The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God;”) and used in Mark 1:2-3 (“As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.”)

Now, what Christians, conveniently, overlook is that the Malachi passage is NOT a prophecy for the coming of Jesus or a messianic figure. Malachi 4:5-6 (“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”) Additionally, the Hebrew Bible, again conveniently, was rearranged in the Christian Old Testament to move Malachi from its place in the middle of the Jewish canon to the end of the OT so that it would preface the start of the New Testament and the manufactured “coming of Jesus as foretold.” Except it wasn’t Jesus who was foretold.

That's a dope post. Good job.

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
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27-12-2013, 12:45 AM
RE: Bible prophecy
Thanks. If you want more biblical deconstructions, please check out my book; available for a number of e-platforms. I discuss the 10 commandments and Daniel's prophecies, as in your OP.

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