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19-03-2016, 11:10 AM
RE: Bible question!
(19-03-2016 11:02 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Jesus starts out as a messiah candidate loosely based on actual Jewish expectations. It required a lot of hope and wishing that he'll come back to life, but the expectations were clearly Jewish. When it became evident that Jesus wasn’t “coming back” and that the messianic era wasn’t kicking off, I think the Jewish followers started to doubt and perhaps drop off. The religion was opened up to the Pagan Romans to keep it going. There were two sets of rules within early Christianity. Jews were still expected to keep kosher and circumcise their sons. Romans were not held to these rules. The Jews within the ranks of early Christianity held that the messiah is a Jewish concept and must adhere to the previously established Jewish rules while Roman weaved in their own pagan traditions and superimposed Jesus onto existing Roman stories about a savior.

As I was taught, resentment between the the messianic Jews and the pagans within early Christianity had caused a huge divide and this passage seems to be about that conflict.

10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain.

Here, the author of Titus seems to be calling out the Jews, presumably angry because they’re teaching Jewish values which contradict pagan values.

12 One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

Give the silent treatment to the Jews because they’re putting their time-honored history and tradition before our pagan idolatry.

“Commandments of men” is a clear reference to the Rabbinic tradition. Christians refer to it as such to this day.

15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

Jews don’t tend to “believe”. Judaism isn’t a faith based religion; it’s founded on action. This seems to be a reference to Christianity's ideas that faith and belief are somehow "superior" to Jewish action or deeds.

this makes a lot of sense too. could it go both ways? can it be to the false prophets and pharisees? or is it strictly to the jews?
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19-03-2016, 11:25 AM
RE: Bible question!
(19-03-2016 11:10 AM)Jewelarcher Wrote:  
(19-03-2016 11:02 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Jesus starts out as a messiah candidate loosely based on actual Jewish expectations. It required a lot of hope and wishing that he'll come back to life, but the expectations were clearly Jewish. When it became evident that Jesus wasn’t “coming back” and that the messianic era wasn’t kicking off, I think the Jewish followers started to doubt and perhaps drop off. The religion was opened up to the Pagan Romans to keep it going. There were two sets of rules within early Christianity. Jews were still expected to keep kosher and circumcise their sons. Romans were not held to these rules. The Jews within the ranks of early Christianity held that the messiah is a Jewish concept and must adhere to the previously established Jewish rules while Roman weaved in their own pagan traditions and superimposed Jesus onto existing Roman stories about a savior.

As I was taught, resentment between the the messianic Jews and the pagans within early Christianity had caused a huge divide and this passage seems to be about that conflict.

10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain.

Here, the author of Titus seems to be calling out the Jews, presumably angry because they’re teaching Jewish values which contradict pagan values.

12 One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

Give the silent treatment to the Jews because they’re putting their time-honored history and tradition before our pagan idolatry.

“Commandments of men” is a clear reference to the Rabbinic tradition. Christians refer to it as such to this day.

15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

Jews don’t tend to “believe”. Judaism isn’t a faith based religion; it’s founded on action. This seems to be a reference to Christianity's ideas that faith and belief are somehow "superior" to Jewish action or deeds.

this makes a lot of sense too. could it go both ways? can it be to the false prophets and pharisees? or is it strictly to the jews?

Based on my understanding of what was going on at the time, this is clearly referencing the messianic Jews who were favoring Jewish traditions instead of adopting the pagan traditions which had been allowed to enter into early Christianity.

I could be wrong; I'm really not well read on NT teachings, but the writer is talking about "rebellious" people who just so happen to be circumcised. Messianic Jews fit so nicely into this description.

According to Jewish teaching, there were no prophets in this era at all as such that anyone who claimed to be one was automatically regarded as being false. I don't know what Christians thought of this, though.

The Pharisees were loyal to Rabbinic Judaism and were working to give the boot to Jews who believed in Jesus. I can't see them being regarded as "rebellious," though, because they were never under the authority of Paul's teachings to begin with.
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19-03-2016, 11:50 AM
RE: Bible question!
"Jewish myths" refers not to the Jewish scriptures but to false religious ideas and traditions that many Jews accepted as being true. Jesus often condemned the scribes and Pharisees for placing their traditions on the same level of authority as the scriptures. The New Testament is based on the foundation laid by the Old Testement. The Old Testament is quoted many times in the New.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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19-03-2016, 12:00 PM
RE: Bible question!
(19-03-2016 11:50 AM)theophilus Wrote:  "Jewish myths" refers not to the Jewish scriptures but to false religious ideas and traditions that many Jews accepted as being true. Jesus often condemned the scribes and Pharisees for placing their traditions on the same level of authority as the scriptures. The New Testament is based on the foundation laid by the Old Testement. The Old Testament is quoted many times in the New.

Of course, you know what the correct religious ideas and traditions are Rolleyes

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-03-2016, 12:02 PM
RE: Bible question!
(19-03-2016 11:50 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The Old Testament is quoted many times in the New.

They screwed up more than they got right... if they got any of their quotes right. What's the source to this quote?

Matthew 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth; that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, "He shall be called a Nazarene."
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19-03-2016, 12:37 PM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2016 12:55 PM by Brian37.)
RE: Bible question!
(18-03-2016 09:50 PM)Jewelarcher Wrote:  As I state in most of my posts.. I joined this site in hopes of finding answers, new ideas, and new perspectives. I gather that some of the people here are religious and some.. As per the name of the site are not. I also have learned that some are ex Christians.
So this question can really be answered by any side.
The bible mentions Jewish myths and warns against them. But isn't the bible based on those "myths"? Why warn against them? or is it completely different?

Of course. The NT is based on the OT which is old Jewish text. Christianity isn't a unique religion nor does it's Bible have magic powers, nor do it's holy people have a red magic bat phone that allows them to talk to a cosmic sky wizard.

It was merely started by a splinter sect who wanted their messiah to come back in their time. There was no real Jesus as the bible claims, that was just popular name the NT writers wrote in after the fact.

Just so you know, the Yahweh of the bible is the same Jewish Yahweh. What apologists, both Christians and Jews will not admit, is that the Yahweh character was a lesser god as part of a divine family in Canaanite polytheism.

Religion does not pop out of thin air. It always starts with a person or group of people taking other ideas around them and or from the past and simply putting a new twist on it.

If you research the history of Rasta, you'll find out it does not originate in Jamaica, that is where someone popularized it, but it stems from African Royalty defending a group, and has it's roots in the God of Abraham as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastafari

Scientology incorporates Christianity, although both try to deny they are related.

https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-simi...cientology

Buddhist will claim the Buddha denied the Vedas, but when you look at the early mythology of Buddhism, it is clear it is a splinter sect of Hinduism.Here is where most Buddhist will claim Buddha rejected the Vedas

http://www.ushistory.org/civ/8d.asp

But the origins of Buddhism start in India, and Hinduism is much older. Just like Christianity created the Jesus Character to separate themselves from the old ways.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_Hinduism

And talk of the divine and magical elephants, nope, that is not Hinduism, that is the birth of Buddha.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(moth...he_Buddha)

Religion works exactly like competition between two competing companies or an employee who doesn't like the old product, creates a new one and incorporates old ideas and at the same time condemns old ideas, to get the buyer to buy the new product.

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19-03-2016, 12:43 PM
RE: Bible question!
In a very real sense, if someone wanted to turn Star Wars into a religion, never underestimate delusion in mass.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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19-03-2016, 04:37 PM
RE: Bible question!
(18-03-2016 09:50 PM)Jewelarcher Wrote:  As I state in most of my posts.. I joined this site in hopes of finding answers, new ideas, and new perspectives. I gather that some of the people here are religious and some.. As per the name of the site are not. I also have learned that some are ex Christians.
So this question can really be answered by any side.
The bible mentions Jewish myths and warns against them. But isn't the bible based on those "myths"? Why warn against them? or is it completely different?

Yahweh spends a lot of time in the Bible trying to discredit other religions, he actually makes a very big deal out of it in his 10 commandments. He only has 10 laws to give and wastes 4 of them on how great he is and he's so totally the only God, who is he trying to convince here? If he is truly the only God that created everything why is he so insecure about it? It seems he's not the only one and wants to take all the credit. A lot of Christianity is inspired by or outright stolen from other religions but mostly Judaism. It was important for the early followers to know they were following the one true God and that all the others were false, you would think they might be confused by all the similarities with the other Pagan beliefs of the time and since many Christians were ex-Jews it would make sense to single it out.

I've noticed a lot of modern day Christians also have a near phobia of learning about other beliefs and go out of their way to avoid evolutionary biology and astrophysics like it's the plague. Anything that make them question their entire foundation they've built their life on is very scary indeed. I would recommend learning as much as you can about all religions, old myths/folktales and philosophy. I have much more respect for believers who have done their research and approach their own holy book with an open mind. Your question is a good one and I hope you achieve more clarity.

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19-03-2016, 04:46 PM
RE: Bible question!
(19-03-2016 04:37 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  
(18-03-2016 09:50 PM)Jewelarcher Wrote:  As I state in most of my posts.. I joined this site in hopes of finding answers, new ideas, and new perspectives. I gather that some of the people here are religious and some.. As per the name of the site are not. I also have learned that some are ex Christians.
So this question can really be answered by any side.
The bible mentions Jewish myths and warns against them. But isn't the bible based on those "myths"? Why warn against them? or is it completely different?

Yahweh spends a lot of time in the Bible trying to discredit other religions, he actually makes a very big deal out of it in his 10 commandments. He only has 10 laws to give and wastes 4 of them on how great he is and he's so totally the only God, who is he trying to convince here? If he is truly the only God that created everything why is he so insecure about it? It seems he's not the only one and wants to take all the credit. A lot of Christianity is inspired by or outright stolen from other religions but mostly Judaism. It was important for the early followers to know they were following the one true God and that all the others were false, you would think they might be confused by all the similarities with the other Pagan beliefs of the time and since many Christians were ex-Jews it would make sense to single it out.

I've noticed a lot of modern day Christians also have a near phobia of learning about other beliefs and go out of their way to avoid evolutionary biology and astrophysics like it's the plague. Anything that make them question their entire foundation they've built their life on is very scary indeed. I would recommend learning as much as you can about all religions, old myths/folktales and philosophy. I have much more respect for believers who have done their research and approach their own holy book with an open mind. Your question is a good one and I hope you achieve more clarity.

thank you so much! i really used to be into learning about the roman gods and goddesses and others alike. that was always my favorite study in school. when i started going to church on my own.. and picked a church "home" all of that vanished. i felt like i had no choice if i wanted to be a good person or please god. it really is the scariest thing i have done. the bible is pushed so deep down.. everytime i start to have questions verses come up in my head reminding me that im not supposed to do this. its like my religion is literally weighing me down. and its funny because when i was a christian i always said it set me free. its a real mess that i have gotten in lol.
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19-03-2016, 04:53 PM
RE: Bible question!
(19-03-2016 11:50 AM)theophilus Wrote:  "Jewish myths" refers not to the Jewish scriptures but to false religious ideas and traditions that many Jews accepted as being true. Jesus often condemned the scribes and Pharisees for placing their traditions on the same level of authority as the scriptures. The New Testament is based on the foundation laid by the Old Testement. The Old Testament is quoted many times in the New.

Prove it.
Jesus never existed, and one book of myths quoting another book of myths does not true history make.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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