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30-07-2015, 02:32 PM
Bible questions...
So I'm arguing with someone on YouTube <waits for snickering to subside and obligatory comments about this being the source of the problem> about the bible <waits for more snickering to subside>. I'm no expert, so I'm wondering if I'm just wrong about this stuff. It doesn't help much that I'm debating the points of the story (I know, I know... ask for evidence Jesus existed at all first, and then that any of the events actually happened).

I called Jesus a spiteful, racist, thief. My reasoning for this comes off a web-page though of course I went to read the bible bits myself to be sure (at least, as sure as I could be).

Let's start with spiteful. This comes from Mark 11:12-14 in which Jesus comes across a fig tree that has leaves but no fruit, being the wrong season for fruit according to Mark, and Jesus then curses the tree to death. Killing a tree for not bearing fruit out of season seems to me to be spiteful. The counter to this has been two-fold. First that the leaves indicated that there _should_ have been fruit, and second that this was some sort of set-up for Mark 13:28-31 which talks about a fig tree as a parable (fig trees apparently representing Israel). However this second fig tree isn't withered or cursed from what I can tell, it's just before summer, part of spring. That or young. Or am I way off here?
(His link was: http://www.gotquestions.org/curse-fig-tree.html )

Next, racist. This comes from Matthew 15:22-26 where a Canaanite woman begging for help from Jesus seems to be called a dog by Jesus. Given others didn't like her either for being the wrong nationality, this would seem to be racism to me. The counter argument so far is that the word "dog" in Greek doesn't mean "worthless" but closer to "pet" (not sure how this helps), that everyone else at the time had the same prejudices (again, not sure how this helps), or that Jesus was testing her conviction. Still seems like a racist jab to me... but I'm not sure.
(His link was: http://www.gotquestions.org/Canaanite-woman-dog.html )

Finally there's thief. Jesus sends two guys into town to take a colt, and tells them "if anyone asks, just say the Lord needs it". The first argument was, of course, that god (and to this person Jesus is god) owns everything so it's not stealing, but I contend that the shifty way it was obtained suggests they were trying to not get caught, but had a line just in case. The argument for that was that the point was to get attention, but the line says "if someone asks", not when, not wait until they do, not make sure they do, which again sounds like they knew there'd be objections and had a line to give to make them not question (how often do thieves try such social engineering?). The next contention was that as it was a colt that "had never sat a man", it was not owned by anyone. However my problem here is that if the colt was not owned it doesn't make sense to me that anyone would ask as, for all they would know with this being an unknown colt, it might be theirs.
This one has just splintered into a discussion of this being a prophecy from Zechariah 9:9, but I plan to point out it's a self-fulfilling one and, more, that verses 9:10-13 seem to suggest this promised king is a military one (taking away chariots, turning Judah into a bow and filling that bow with Ephraim), none of which is in the Jesus story, though I'd like to know if that holds up before I made a (bigger) idiot out of myself arguing this.

So other than being kinda silly for arguing the merits of a story (hey, I argue about super-heroes, too), am I close on this, way off, slightly off?
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30-07-2015, 03:20 PM
RE: Bible questions...
yeah the bible is filled with shit like this

joshua is the mosh violent person is all three of three of the books just google him and youll get all the spiteful you want god command him to kiil heathens left and right
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30-07-2015, 06:27 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(30-07-2015 02:32 PM)OddGamer Wrote:  I called Jesus a spiteful, racist, thief. My reasoning for this comes off a web-page though of course I went to read the bible bits myself to be sure (at least, as sure as I could be).
Let's start with spiteful. This comes from Mark 11:12-14 in which Jesus comes across a fig tree that has leaves but no fruit, being the wrong season for fruit according to Mark, and Jesus then curses the tree to death. Killing a tree for not bearing fruit out of season seems to me to be spiteful. The counter to this has been two-fold. First that the leaves indicated that there _should_ have been fruit, and second that this was some sort of set-up for Mark 13:28-31 which talks about a fig tree as a parable (fig trees apparently representing Israel). However this second fig tree isn't withered or cursed from what I can tell, it's just before summer, part of spring. That or young. Or am I way off here?
(His link was: http://www.gotquestions.org/curse-fig-tree.html )
The most important thing in this story is that useless things are garbage.
Not season for the fruits? Who cares? This is not the point of the teaching of Jesus in this story.
(30-07-2015 02:32 PM)OddGamer Wrote:  Next, racist. This comes from Matthew 15:22-26 where a Canaanite woman begging for help from Jesus seems to be called a dog by Jesus. Given others didn't like her either for being the wrong nationality, this would seem to be racism to me. The counter argument so far is that the word "dog" in Greek doesn't mean "worthless" but closer to "pet" (not sure how this helps), that everyone else at the time had the same prejudices (again, not sure how this helps), or that Jesus was testing her conviction. Still seems like a racist jab to me... but I'm not sure.
(His link was: http://www.gotquestions.org/Canaanite-woman-dog.html )
If He is racist then why was He teaching a Gentile woman at the well?
(30-07-2015 02:32 PM)OddGamer Wrote:  Finally there's thief. Jesus sends two guys into town to take a colt, and tells them "if anyone asks, just say the Lord needs it". The first argument was, of course, that god (and to this person Jesus is god) owns everything so it's not stealing, but I contend that the shifty way it was obtained suggests they were trying to not get caught, but had a line just in case. The argument for that was that the point was to get attention, but the line says "if someone asks", not when, not wait until they do, not make sure they do, which again sounds like they knew there'd be objections and had a line to give to make them not question (how often do thieves try such social engineering?).
Yes, it is true that Jesus is God and everything is His. But Jesus didn't have time to explain it to the owner. Could be?

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30-07-2015, 07:39 PM
RE: Bible questions...
Jesus was a dick.....or would have been if he existed.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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30-07-2015, 07:58 PM
RE: Bible questions...
The very concept of Chosen People is racist in a sense. Even if Jesus wasn't racist, his alter ego certainly was. The virtue of a man or a woman is not tied to its nation, but from his convictions, his actions and capacity to learn and improve.
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30-07-2015, 08:13 PM (This post was last modified: 31-07-2015 04:56 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Bible questions...
(30-07-2015 06:27 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(30-07-2015 02:32 PM)OddGamer Wrote:  I called Jesus a spiteful, racist, thief. My reasoning for this comes off a web-page though of course I went to read the bible bits myself to be sure (at least, as sure as I could be).
Let's start with spiteful. This comes from Mark 11:12-14 in which Jesus comes across a fig tree that has leaves but no fruit, being the wrong season for fruit according to Mark, and Jesus then curses the tree to death. Killing a tree for not bearing fruit out of season seems to me to be spiteful. The counter to this has been two-fold. First that the leaves indicated that there _should_ have been fruit, and second that this was some sort of set-up for Mark 13:28-31 which talks about a fig tree as a parable (fig trees apparently representing Israel). However this second fig tree isn't withered or cursed from what I can tell, it's just before summer, part of spring. That or young. Or am I way off here?
(His link was: http://www.gotquestions.org/curse-fig-tree.html )
The most important thing in this story is that useless things are garbage.
Not season for the fruits? Who cares? This is not the point of the teaching of Jesus in this story.
(30-07-2015 02:32 PM)OddGamer Wrote:  Next, racist. This comes from Matthew 15:22-26 where a Canaanite woman begging for help from Jesus seems to be called a dog by Jesus. Given others didn't like her either for being the wrong nationality, this would seem to be racism to me. The counter argument so far is that the word "dog" in Greek doesn't mean "worthless" but closer to "pet" (not sure how this helps), that everyone else at the time had the same prejudices (again, not sure how this helps), or that Jesus was testing her conviction. Still seems like a racist jab to me... but I'm not sure.
(His link was: http://www.gotquestions.org/Canaanite-woman-dog.html )
If He is racist then why was He teaching a Gentile woman at the well?
(30-07-2015 02:32 PM)OddGamer Wrote:  Finally there's thief. Jesus sends two guys into town to take a colt, and tells them "if anyone asks, just say the Lord needs it". The first argument was, of course, that god (and to this person Jesus is god) owns everything so it's not stealing, but I contend that the shifty way it was obtained suggests they were trying to not get caught, but had a line just in case. The argument for that was that the point was to get attention, but the line says "if someone asks", not when, not wait until they do, not make sure they do, which again sounds like they knew there'd be objections and had a line to give to make them not question (how often do thieves try such social engineering?).
Yes, it is true that Jesus is God and everything is His. But Jesus didn't have time to explain it to the owner. Could be?

"The most important thing in this story is that useless things are garbage."

You should follow Jeebus' advice and dump the Mormon book.

If He is racist then why was He teaching a Gentile woman at the well? Because he was a racist.

Most Christians assume Jesus loved anyone who accepted him; that Jesus had a personal interest in each and every individual. Yet they misunderstand their main man. Jesus did not love Gentiles (who he referred to as pagans.) He told his disciples:

“Do not turn your steps to pagan territory, and do not enter any Samaritan town. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel” (Matt. 10:6, NJB.) He said:

“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel” (Matt. 15:24, NJB.)

Jesus even told his fellow Jews not to pray like pagans (non Jewish people):

“And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him” (Matt. 6:7–8, NJB.)

Here is Jesus’ encounter with a Greek (i.e. non-Jewish) woman:

“He left that place and set out for the territory of Tyre. There he went into a house and did not want anyone to know he was there, but he could not pass unrecognized. A woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit heard about him straight away and came and fell at his feet. Now the woman was pagan, by birth a Syrophonecian and she begged him to cast the devil out of her daughter and he said to her ‘the children should be fed first, because it is not fair to take the children’s food and throw it to the house dogs’. But she spoke up ‘Ah yes sir’ she replied ‘but the house dogs under the table can eat the children’s scraps’. And he said to her ‘for saying this, you may go home happy; the devil has gone out of your daughter’. So she went off to her home and found the child lying on the bed and the devil gone” (Mark 7:24–30, NJB.)

Jesus was drawing an analogy. The children were his fellow Jews, who were to be fed first. Gentiles were referred to as dogs, (when Jews wished to insult someone they often referred to them as dogs) whom Jesus would rather not help. Jesus hesitated before healing the girl because her mother was not Jewish.

Caesaria was the capital of Judea and Sepphoris the capital of Galilee, yet there is no record that Jesus ever visited either city, despite their size and importance, possibly because Gentiles populated them. Jesus could have taken his mission outside Palestine. Egyptians, Greeks, Africans, and Romans might have been wowed by his words of wisdom, yet he did not bother with them either, as they too were in Gentile territories.

These few passages suggest that Jesus was xenophobic. If Yeshua were an insurrectionist trying to start a war, preaching platitudes to Gentiles would have been the last thing on his mind. It is possible these statements reflect Yeshua’s real attitude.

People who push the “Jesus loves you” line need to read their Bibles more carefully, and should try to understand the real history. It is obvious Jesus did not even like you unless you were Jewish.

It is true there are other quotes that portray Jesus as a preacher for all people. It is probable Gentile authors have added these to try to give Jesus universal appeal, yet these quotes cannot compensate for Jesus’ bigotry.
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30-07-2015, 10:51 PM
RE: Bible questions...
Quote:Caesaria was the capital of Judea and Sepphoris the capital of Galilee, yet there is no record that Jesus ever visited either city, despite their size and importance, possibly because Gentiles popu- lated them.

Or, more likely, there was no jesus in the first place.

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31-07-2015, 01:59 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(30-07-2015 07:58 PM)epronovost Wrote:  The very concept of Chosen People is racist in a sense. Even if Jesus wasn't racist, his alter ego certainly was. The virtue of a man or a woman is not tied to its nation, but from his convictions, his actions and capacity to learn and improve.
Not if they are chosen to fulfill a mission. A task no other people are willing to do.

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31-07-2015, 02:19 PM (This post was last modified: 31-07-2015 02:22 PM by Alla.)
RE: Bible questions...
(30-07-2015 08:13 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(30-07-2015 06:27 PM)Alla Wrote:  "The most important thing in this story is that useless things are garbage."
You should follow Jeebus' advice and dump the Mormon book.
I would if He gave advice like this.

(30-07-2015 08:13 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Most Christians assume Jesus loved anyone who accepted him; that Jesus had a personal interest in each and every individual. Yet they misunderstand their main man. Jesus did not love Gentiles (who he referred to as pagans.) He told his disciples:

“Do not turn your steps to pagan territory, and do not enter any Samaritan town. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel” (Matt. 10:6, NJB.) He said:

“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel” (Matt. 15:24, NJB.)

Jesus even told his fellow Jews not to pray like pagans (non Jewish people):

“And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him” (Matt. 6:7–8, NJB.)

Here is Jesus’ encounter with a Greek (i.e. non-Jewish) woman:

“He left that place and set out for the territory of Tyre. There he went into a house and did not want anyone to know he was there, but he could not pass unrecognized. A woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit heard about him straight away and came and fell at his feet. Now the woman was pagan, by birth a Syrophonecian and she begged him to cast the devil out of her daughter and he said to her ‘the children should be fed first, because it is not fair to take the children’s food and throw it to the house dogs’. But she spoke up ‘Ah yes sir’ she replied ‘but the house dogs under the table can eat the children’s scraps’. And he said to her ‘for saying this, you may go home happy; the devil has gone out of your daughter’. So she went off to her home and found the child lying on the bed and the devil gone” (Mark 7:24–30, NJB.)

Jesus was drawing an analogy. The children were his fellow Jews, who were to be fed first. Gentiles were referred to as dogs, (when Jews wished to insult someone they often referred to them as dogs) whom Jesus would rather not help. Jesus hesitated before healing the girl because her mother was not Jewish.

Caesaria was the capital of Judea and Sepphoris the capital of Galilee, yet there is no record that Jesus ever visited either city, despite their size and importance, possibly because Gentiles populated them. Jesus could have taken his mission outside Palestine. Egyptians, Greeks, Africans, and Romans might have been wowed by his words of wisdom, yet he did not bother with them either, as they too were in Gentile territories.

These few passages suggest that Jesus was xenophobic. If Yeshua were an insurrectionist trying to start a war, preaching platitudes to Gentiles would have been the last thing on his mind. It is possible these statements reflect Yeshua’s real attitude.
People who push the “Jesus loves you” line need to read their Bibles more carefully, and should try to understand the real history. It is obvious Jesus did not even like you unless you were Jewish.

It is true there are other quotes that portray Jesus as a preacher for all people. It is probable Gentile authors have added these to try to give Jesus universal appeal, yet these quotes cannot compensate for Jesus’ bigotry.
Hmm... I ask myself: If Jesus doesn't love the Gentiles then why did He die for them? Why did He took all their sins upon Himself and why did He sent His Apostles to preach GOOD NEWS to the Gentiles?
Why did He say to preach His Gospel to all people?

The only answer that I have is this : Jesus loves the Gentiles that is why He died for them and preaches Good News for them through His Apostles and Prophets.

P.S.The ONLY reason why He said those things that you quoted is because time for the Gentiles DIDN'T come YET when He lived on Earth.

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31-07-2015, 02:29 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(30-07-2015 08:13 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  It is obvious Jesus did not even like you unless you were Jewish.
I know He does. I know it through personal revelation by the power of the Holly Ghost. The love that I felt at that moment was undeniable.
When the Holy Ghost testifies to me of something
1)I know it is true
2)I can not deny what is true.
You will never understand what I am talking about unless you experience what I experience.
P.S. You are wrong when you say "unless you were Jewish" House of Israel are not only Jewish people. House of Israel are 11 more peoples. And they were scattered all over the world.

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