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31-07-2015, 07:33 PM
RE: Bible questions...
I'll leave this one to you, Mark.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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31-07-2015, 08:05 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(31-07-2015 05:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 05:39 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Faith is the belief in something for which there is no evidence.
It is not a definition of faith. Faith is a very strong conviction that causes you to act.
First I have faith, then I act according to my faith, then I have evidence.
it is that simple

Perhaps the concept of Faith has one meaning to your other languages. It has multiple meanings and the common connotation of Faith in this context has been known as:

belief that is not based on proof

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

It's not in any English definition a strong conviction that causes you to act.

What you believe a word to mean, especially in your 3rd language, isn't something you should really try hard to defend, perhaps admit and accept you may have a different perception because of that. Language isn't rigid, it's nothing to be ashamed of not always having intricate details about.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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31-07-2015, 08:30 PM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2015 04:25 AM by Tonechaser77.)
RE: Bible questions...
(30-07-2015 02:32 PM)OddGamer Wrote:  So other than being kinda silly for arguing the merits of a story (hey, I argue about super-heroes, too), am I close on this, way off, slightly off?


The teachings of Jesus, where they are attractive, were not original to him. Take Jesus' preaching on love and forgiveness:

Mark 12:31
"You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Matthew 6:14
"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you."

Matthew 7:12
"So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets. "

These are far less than original. We find similar teachings in the Jewish culture of Jesus. Hillel, the famous Jewish preacher had already taught such a doctrine:

What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow-man: this is the whole law, the rest is commentary.

We find the same essence in the Old Testament:

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself...

In other cultures too, we find preachers already preaching similar doctrines long before Jesus. The Chinese philosopher, Confucius (551-478 BCE) in his Analects said:

"A young man's duty is to behave well to his parents at home and to his elders abroad, to be cautious in giving promise and punctual in keeping them, to have kindly feelings towards everyone, but seek intimacy of the good."

In the teaching about love and forgiveness, Jesus has no claim to originality. Even his famous dictum about loving one's enemies is not original. It had precedents in the general mileau of first century Hellenistic intellectual culture:

Matthew 5:44
"But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..."

The Old Testament archetype for this teaching can be found in Exodus:

Exodus 23:4-5
If you meet your enemy's ox or his ass going astray, you shall bring it back to him. If you see the ass of one who hates you lying under its burden, you shall refrain from leaving him with it, you shall help him to lift it up

Similar parallels are found in the prevalent cynic and stoic philosophies of first century CE:

Epictetus (fl. circa end of first century CE)
"A rather nice part of being a cynic comes when you have to be beaten like an ass, and throughout the beating you have to love those who are beating you as though you were father or brother to them"

Diogenes (c412-323 BCE)
How shall I defend myself against an enemy? By being good and kind towards him replied Diogenes.

Seneca (4 BCE -65 CE)
Someone gets angry with you. Challenge him with kindness in return. Enmity immediately tumbles away when one side lets it fall.

There were many thinkers, before and after Jesus who extolled teachings similar to Jesus'. They include, among others Lao Tzu (6th cent BCE), Mencius (4th cent BCE), Epicurus (342-270 BCE) and Marcus Aurelius (121-180 CE). But there is actually a difference between these humanists teachings and Jesus'. To them doing good comes spontaneously to the educated because he understands that man is a social animal. But to Jesus one must do good because the reward is great.

Luke 6:35
"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great..."

Matthew 6:3-4
"But when you give alms...your Father who sees in secret will reward you."

Matthew 5:12
"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven."

Reward and punishment are primitive ethical concepts. Just as we do not think highly of any man who refrains from committing a crime only because he is afraid of getting caught, we cannot think highly of ethical teachings which promises reward for doing good and punishment for doing evil. This concept is one suited for little children and morally maladjusted adults. For this reason, Jesus' ethical teachings are not as complete as the humanists thinkers.

More closely to your point, in the teachings of Jesus that do have some claims to originality, they are not the sort you would expect to be read in church. For instance, Jesus teaches abandonment of the family:

Matthew 19:29
"And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold..."

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters...he cannot be my disciple."

Some of his original teachings are so downright barbaric that even fundamentalists wouldn't take it literally:

Matthew 18:8-9 (Mark 9:43-47)
"And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire. "

Furthermore some of his teachings advertised as good and revolutionary are actually quite harmful. Take the oft-quoted passage below:

Luke 6:29-30
"To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from him who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. Give to every one who begs from you; and of him who takes away your goods do not ask them again. "

Much praise have been showered on the above teaching, but there is something fundamentally unsound about it. What Jesus was preaching was not passive resistance. By turning the other cheek to one who had just slapped you or by giving your coat to one who had just stolen your cloak, Jesus is teaching one to actively encourage oppression on themselves.

**Crickets** -- God
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31-07-2015, 08:52 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(31-07-2015 08:05 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 05:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  It is not a definition of faith. Faith is a very strong conviction that causes you to act.
First I have faith, then I act according to my faith, then I have evidence.
it is that simple

Perhaps the concept of Faith has one meaning to your other languages. It has multiple meanings and the common connotation of Faith in this context has been known as:

belief that is not based on proof

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

It's not in any English definition a strong conviction that causes you to act.

What you believe a word to mean, especially in your 3rd language, isn't something you should really try hard to defend, perhaps admit and accept you may have a different perception because of that. Language isn't rigid, it's nothing to be ashamed of not always having intricate details about.
Faith - confidence or trust in a person or thing:
This exactly what I was talking about.
I have strong confidence in myself that I can walk on a rope. I have to act according to my faith in order to find out that it is true.
I have strong confidence and trust in God. He tells me what to do and what the result will be. I act upon my faith in order to find out that it is true.
Just a belief in God is not faith I God. Just a belief in God can be called "dead faith".
There is no big difference between an atheist and a person who just believe in God.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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31-07-2015, 09:00 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(31-07-2015 08:30 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  Much praise have been showered on the above teaching, but there is something fundamentally unsound about it. What Jesus was preaching was not passive resistance. By turning the other cheek to one who had just slapped you or by giving your coat to one who had just stolen you cloak, Jesus is teaching one to actively encourage oppression on themselves.
I strongly disagree.
When someone slaps me on my right cheek he/she doesn't attack me to do physical harm but to offend me. Kind of like spit in my face.
Stand in front of somebody and try slap him/her on their right cheek. If you are right handed person (and most of the people are )you will see how uncomfortable it is to do this.
Jesus was teaching this: if somebody tells you: "you are not very good at critical thinking" and this offends you do not fight back by offending this person.
You won't gain anything good from it.
About cloak.
I have to go. I will finish later

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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31-07-2015, 09:01 PM (This post was last modified: 31-07-2015 09:07 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Bible questions...
(31-07-2015 08:52 PM)Alla Wrote:  Just a belief in God is not faith I God. Just a belief in God can be called "dead faith".
There is no big difference between an atheist and a person who just believe in God.

I would go even further and say there is no big difference between this atheist and a person who has faith in God. You don't think you are God and I think you are. That's our only difference.

#sigh
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31-07-2015, 09:05 PM (This post was last modified: 31-07-2015 09:10 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Bible questions...
(31-07-2015 09:00 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 08:30 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  Much praise have been showered on the above teaching, but there is something fundamentally unsound about it. What Jesus was preaching was not passive resistance. By turning the other cheek to one who had just slapped you or by giving your coat to one who had just stolen you cloak, Jesus is teaching one to actively encourage oppression on themselves.
I strongly disagree.
When someone slaps me on my right cheek he/she doesn't attack me to do physical harm but to offend me. Kind of like spit in my face.
Stand in front of somebody and try slap him/her on their right cheek. If you are right handed person (and most of the people are )you will see how uncomfortable it is to do this.
Jesus was teaching this: if somebody tells you: "you are not very good at critical thinking" and this offends you do not fight back by offending this person.
You won't gain anything good from it.
About cloak.
I have to go. I will finish later

Is this another of your metaphorical interpretations of the Bible? Tell Girlyman which sections of the Bible should be read literally.

#sigh
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31-07-2015, 10:33 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(31-07-2015 05:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 05:29 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Ok. I hear that. Would you like more evidence?
Sure, but one at a time. I am not too bright.Weeping

Ok Alla, here is some evidence. http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...n-of-Jesus

Talking with you inspired me to post it.
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01-08-2015, 07:24 AM
RE: Bible questions...
(31-07-2015 05:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 05:39 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Faith is the belief in something for which there is no evidence.
It is not a definition of faith. Faith is a very strong conviction that causes you to act.
First I have faith, then I act according to my faith, then I have evidence.
it is that simple

That is known as confirmation bias. You believe first then you interpret things to support your belief.

It is entirely backwards from honest truth-seeking.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-08-2015, 12:35 PM
RE: Bible questions...

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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