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01-08-2015, 12:53 PM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2015 12:57 PM by Alla.)
RE: Bible questions...
When someone slaps me on my right cheek he/she doesn't attack me to do physical harm but to offend me. Kind of like spit in my face.
Stand in front of somebody and try slap him/her on their right cheek. If you are right handed person (and most of the people are )you will see how uncomfortable it is to do this.
Jesus was teaching this: if somebody tells you: "you are not very good at critical thinking" and this offends you do not fight back by offending this person.
You won't gain anything good from it.
You will gain by turning the other cheek. When someone wants to offend you even more then one time the best and the smartest thing to do is to ignore or to avoid this person.
And this is what Jesus teaches. This is what He did when lived on Earth. By doing what He did someone becomes more like Jesus. By trying to be more like Jesus someone may enter Celestial Kingdom.

About cloak. Let's say I am a Jew who lives in the first century AD. Let's say Roman soldier takes away my cloak.
He has my cloak against my will. By giving him my other cloak I tell him: "You violated me. You took from me something against my will. But now you can have something mine and it is not because you tell/order me to do this but because I choose to do so.
You can take away from me my thing but you can not take away from me who I am.
When I do this I become more like Jesus. I become more like God. I become a better person.
Roman soldier can feel like a fool. Roman soldier can have a desire to become like me which means to be like Jesus, which means to be no less than God.
How about that man whose ear was cut off and then healed by Jesus? Did he want to hurt Jesus? I bet he wanted to do this.
I wonder what He thought about Jesus after He healed him? I wonder if he became Christian?
Doing what Jesus taught to do will not make me feel oppressed but will make me feel that I am a better and a stronger person then I was before.

That is all what Jesus taught when He talked about cheek and cloak. Do you see now that Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches you beautiful principles?

English is my second language.
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01-08-2015, 12:59 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(31-07-2015 10:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 05:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  Sure, but one at a time. I am not too bright.Weeping

Ok Alla, here is some evidence. http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...n-of-Jesus

Talking with you inspired me to post it.
Thanks, Mark Fulton. Let me read. Let me be sure I understand what you say and I will respond.

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01-08-2015, 01:10 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(31-07-2015 08:52 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 08:05 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Perhaps the concept of Faith has one meaning to your other languages. It has multiple meanings and the common connotation of Faith in this context has been known as:

belief that is not based on proof

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

It's not in any English definition a strong conviction that causes you to act.

What you believe a word to mean, especially in your 3rd language, isn't something you should really try hard to defend, perhaps admit and accept you may have a different perception because of that. Language isn't rigid, it's nothing to be ashamed of not always having intricate details about.
Faith - confidence or trust in a person or thing:
This exactly what I was talking about.
I have strong confidence in myself that I can walk on a rope. I have to act according to my faith in order to find out that it is true.
I have strong confidence and trust in God. He tells me what to do and what the result will be. I act upon my faith in order to find out that it is true.
Just a belief in God is not faith I God. Just a belief in God can be called "dead faith".
There is no big difference between an atheist and a person who just believe in God.

You can use it that way, and that is a fine situation. But will you for the sake of showing you have some honesty,will you admit you have stated factually wrong things that you may of believed, but are demonstrably wrong and you are willing to see that?

By example of the clear one here in this situation.

(31-07-2015 05:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 05:39 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Faith is the belief in something for which there is no evidence.
It is not a definition of faith.


belief that is not based on proof

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

It IS a definition of Faith. What you have said is blatantly wrong. There are multiple definitions and may not be the definition you consider when you say Faith. It's not the case that you are right though. There are other cases of your clearly wrong statements such as legality of flag burning in countries and such. I am curious though if you are at least willing to openly admit false claims form yourself because so far you ignore them and move onto other comments.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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01-08-2015, 02:02 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(01-08-2015 01:10 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 08:52 PM)Alla Wrote:  Faith - confidence or trust in a person or thing:
This exactly what I was talking about.
I have strong confidence in myself that I can walk on a rope. I have to act according to my faith in order to find out that it is true.
I have strong confidence and trust in God. He tells me what to do and what the result will be. I act upon my faith in order to find out that it is true.
Just a belief in God is not faith I God. Just a belief in God can be called "dead faith".
There is no big difference between an atheist and a person who just believe in God.

You can use it that way, and that is a fine situation. But will you for the sake of showing you have some honesty,will you admit you have stated factually wrong things that you may of believed, but are demonstrably wrong and you are willing to see that?

By example of the clear one here in this situation.

(31-07-2015 05:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  It is not a definition of faith.


belief that is not based on proof

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

It IS a definition of Faith. What you have said is blatantly wrong. There are multiple definitions and may not be the definition you consider when you say Faith. It's not the case that you are right though. There are other cases of your clearly wrong statements such as legality of flag burning in countries and such. I am curious though if you are at least willing to openly admit false claims form yourself because so far you ignore them and move onto other comments.
I agree that belief is not based on proof.
But faith can be based on proof if I act upon it first.
There is a difference between belief and faith.

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01-08-2015, 02:12 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(01-08-2015 02:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(01-08-2015 01:10 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You can use it that way, and that is a fine situation. But will you for the sake of showing you have some honesty,will you admit you have stated factually wrong things that you may of believed, but are demonstrably wrong and you are willing to see that?

By example of the clear one here in this situation.



belief that is not based on proof

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

It IS a definition of Faith. What you have said is blatantly wrong. There are multiple definitions and may not be the definition you consider when you say Faith. It's not the case that you are right though. There are other cases of your clearly wrong statements such as legality of flag burning in countries and such. I am curious though if you are at least willing to openly admit false claims form yourself because so far you ignore them and move onto other comments.
I agree that belief is not based on proof.
But faith can be based on proof if I act upon it first.
There is a difference between belief and faith.

And there is a difference between faith and faith depending on the context. Words can have and many do have multiple meanings depending on the context. Your response shows you either have an inability to grasp what was stated to you or you don't care and have no means of communicating efficiently

Unless you decide to change this and admit, I'll just move away from someone demonstrating a complete lack of honesty and willingness to admit they stated something incorrectly. There is no good reason to talk to someone who denies any sense of their reason.
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01-08-2015, 02:28 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(01-08-2015 02:12 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  And there is a difference between faith and faith depending on the context. Words can have and many do have multiple meanings depending on the context. Your response shows you either have an inability to grasp what was stated to you or you don't care and have no means of communicating efficiently
Unless you decide to change this and admit, I'll just move away from someone demonstrating a complete lack of honesty and willingness to admit they stated something incorrectly. There is no good reason to talk to someone who denies any sense of their reason.
Sure, there is the difference between true interpretation of faith and false interpretation of faith.
I am talking about true interpretation.
faith is trust and confidence in someone or something.
I have faith in Jesus Christ = I trust and have confidence in Him and that is why I am His follower.
It is that simple.
I don't care about false interpretation of word faith.
Belief in something is not faith in something.

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01-08-2015, 02:34 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(01-08-2015 02:28 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(01-08-2015 02:12 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  And there is a difference between faith and faith depending on the context. Words can have and many do have multiple meanings depending on the context. Your response shows you either have an inability to grasp what was stated to you or you don't care and have no means of communicating efficiently
Unless you decide to change this and admit, I'll just move away from someone demonstrating a complete lack of honesty and willingness to admit they stated something incorrectly. There is no good reason to talk to someone who denies any sense of their reason.
Sure, there is the difference between true interpretation of faith and false interpretation of faith.
I am talking about true interpretation.
faith is trust and confidence in someone or something.
I have faith in Jesus Christ = I trust and have confidence in Him and that is why I am His follower.
It is that simple.
I don't care about false interpretation of word faith.
Belief in something is not faith in something.

This is not relevant to the point of discussion at all! I am merely asking you to clarify do you understand the word faith has multiple definitions. Not "interpretations" of "true" faith.

Do you deny that the word faith has multiple meanings, that Is all I am asking you now, Despite this evidence here of dictionary's and common use by people in this thread?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/faith

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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01-08-2015, 03:46 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(01-08-2015 12:53 PM)Alla Wrote:  When someone slaps me on my right cheek he/she doesn't attack me to do physical harm but to offend me. Kind of like spit in my face.
Stand in front of somebody and try slap him/her on their right cheek. If you are right handed person (and most of the people are )you will see how uncomfortable it is to do this.

Why it matters to say the right over the left cheek I don't understand.

But I could agree if it was on the matter of an insult it's better to just walk away. Or show that the insult doesn't bother you. But if it's in regards to a person being beatin that is just saying just be the victom you'll be a better person for it.

[Image: 2013.09.05-mrconservative-5228aa4e6fb19.jpg]

(01-08-2015 12:53 PM)Alla Wrote:  Jesus was teaching this: if somebody tells you: "you are not very good at critical thinking" and this offends you do not fight back by offending this person.

Yeah, because why demonstrate differently? It's better to just put your tail between you legs, and run away. That will show them.

(01-08-2015 12:53 PM)Alla Wrote:  You won't gain anything good from it.

Self respect. People's support. Enlightenment. First three that poped to mind.

(01-08-2015 12:53 PM)Alla Wrote:  You will gain by turning the other cheek. When someone wants to offend you even more then one time the best and the smartest thing to do is to ignore or to avoid this person.

Ok. I'm going to tell you a personal story about a young Commonsensei. When I was a boy I was constantly bullied. It started around Jr. High, people I thought were my friends started belittling me. shunning me. some strangers even went out of their way to cause me physical harm, for no reason. Most of the time i just shrugged it off. But inside it made me scared, i never knew who or what.

One example:
I was in the gym locker room getting ready for gym class. I kneeled down next to a beach to tie my shoe. When I looked up i saw my school book had fallen off the bench, so i picked them up and went to tie my other shoe. I heared them fall again. I look up and saw one of my bullies (Doug) standing near the beanh looking down at me. "I going to sit their faggot!" I looked around and saw multiple spots to sit on the bench beyond the space i had place my belongings. I said "ok. and picked up my books and placed them at the other end of the bench. Doug walked over and smaked them off again. "The bench isn't for books, shit for brains" He yelled at me. I had finished tying my shoes and was going to be putting my school closes and books away anyway so I picked them up and went to put them in a locker.
From behind doug took my head and forced it into the locker door. I turned around and said "what the hell?" I skand the room all the other guys started rooting him on to fight me. "What's your problem i put my books away." "You are!" Pushing my sholder into a sharp edge of the lock. I pushed back when i saw he was coming in for a punch. People I thought were my friends just stood there, some even saying i deserved what was coming to me. I had no idea what was going on. He grabbed me by the shirt and shoved me into the Lost Dirty Laundry Hamper. When our coach walked in shouted at everyone to get to class.

I didn't fight. And for the rest of jounir high i had to force a place on tables because the people i had called friends showed they weren't. That day gave Doug a new purpose. He search for that adreniale rush more and more often. He knew i wouldn't fight back and him and his cronies would go out of their ways to see me suffer.

That was until I joined my Karate classes. I was a Jounier in highshcool. The last day I was bullied by him was the day I fought back. He had found out I was taking Karate and wanted to imbaris me by tackling me in front of some girls. (He became a star jock on the football team and wrestling) I flipped him over my shoulder, and pinned him to the ground. with his locking his legs and arm behind my head. That day forward they left me alone.

I didn't learn Karate to fight I learned to defend myself.

Just like I've learned to become a better critical thinker, to support my positions.

(01-08-2015 12:53 PM)Alla Wrote:  And this is what Jesus teaches. This is what He did when lived on Earth. By doing what He did someone becomes more like Jesus. By trying to be more like Jesus someone may enter Celestial Kingdom.

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. ~ Jesus


(01-08-2015 12:53 PM)Alla Wrote:  About cloak. Let's say I am a Jew who lives in the first century AD. Let's say Roman soldier takes away my cloak.
He has my cloak against my will. By giving him my other cloak I tell him: "You violated me. You took from me something against my will. But now you can have something mine and it is not because you tell/order me to do this but because I choose to do so.
You can take away from me my thing but you can not take away from me who I am.
When I do this I become more like Jesus. I become more like God. I become a better person.
Roman soldier can feel like a fool. Roman soldier can have a desire to become like me which means to be like Jesus, which means to be no less than God.
How about that man whose ear was cut off and then healed by Jesus? Did he want to hurt Jesus? I bet he wanted to do this.
I wonder what He thought about Jesus after He healed him? I wonder if he became Christian?
Doing what Jesus taught to do will not make me feel oppressed but will make me feel that I am a better and a stronger person then I was before.

Wow, OK. Everything's all over the place. For starts my position on Jesus really existing I don't know. I'm pretty sure the way he's discriped in the bible isn't accurate, if there ever was such a guy. But I don't want to get in to that right now.

I also feel that my Locker room bully story described how i feel about this same scenario. You don't have to go back that far in time to depict an event.

Another bully story shorter I promise.

In my high school there were these kids that would sit at the end of the food iale and pester people for their change. Most of the time it wasn't a problem. But if they saw you got back a large amount of change they would follow you to your chair and pester you until you gave it to them. Everyday. They had money. But they wanted to get lunch then use the money that their parents gave them for lunch to buy cigarettes.

I brought my lunch so they didn't really bother me. But it was an everyday thing. You let them get away with it once and they'll keep at it. Maybe not just a cloak, maybe you shoes, maybe your money. It's supporting people becoming victimized.

(01-08-2015 12:53 PM)Alla Wrote:  That is all what Jesus taught when He talked about cheek and cloak. Do you see now that Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches you beautiful principles?

Some of his principles my be perceived as endearing but it's a facade.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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01-08-2015, 05:38 PM
RE: Bible questions...
Jesus said:

“To the man who slaps you on one cheek, give him the other cheek too,” (Luke 6:29–30, NJB) and

“Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth” (Matt. 5:5, NKJ.)

This encourages abuse and engenders poor self-esteem.

Jesus also said something very strange about enemies:

“I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” (Matt. 5:44, NJB.)

This is poor advice. We should listen to our enemies’ grievances and try to sort out any disagreements, but if necessary defend ourselves. No one should love and pray for their enemies.

Pacifism may be an admirable ideal, but only if backed up by self defense. It is not surprising that only a tiny minority of Christians have ever taken any notice of this maxim.

Jesus often bad-mouthed and threatened others with violence, so he did not lead by example.
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01-08-2015, 06:15 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(01-08-2015 03:46 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Why it matters to say the right over the left cheek I don't understand.
I explained.
(01-08-2015 03:46 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  But I could agree if it was on the matter of an insult it's better to just walk away. Or show that the insult doesn't bother you. But if it's in regards to a person being beatin that is just saying just be the victom you'll be a better person for it.
In this case Jesus said something like this to His disciples before He ascended to heaven: While I was with you no one could kill you or harm you, you had everything you needed. I took care of you. But now sell your stuff and by yourself some swords"
Why? In case you are attacked you may defend your family.
The cheek story is a lesson about ignoring people who offend you not who physically attack you.
Do not offend back those who offend you. But make sure you have your sword(second amendment) if someone wants to harm you physically.
(01-08-2015 03:46 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  
(01-08-2015 12:53 PM)Alla Wrote:  Jesus was teaching this: if somebody tells you: "you are not very good at critical thinking" and this offends you do not fight back by offending this person.
Yeah, because why demonstrate differently? It's better to just put your tail between you legs, and run away. That will show them.
No, it will show them that you do not take offence easily. You are not easily provoked.
(01-08-2015 03:46 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  
(01-08-2015 12:53 PM)Alla Wrote:  You won't gain anything good from it.
Self respect. People's support. Enlightenment. First three that poped to mind.
Mary: Ashley you are an idiot
Ashley: No, you are an idiot.
Mary: you are batch
Ashley: you are .....
Yes, lots of self-respect. Lot's of enlightenment.
(01-08-2015 03:46 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Ok. I'm going to tell you a personal story about a young Commonsensei. When I was a boy I was constantly bullied. It started around Jr. High, people I thought were my friends started belittling me. shunning me. some strangers even went out of their way to cause me physical harm, for no reason. Most of the time i just shrugged it off. But inside it made me scared, i never knew who or what.

One example:
I was in the gym locker room getting ready for gym class. I kneeled down next to a beach to tie my shoe. When I looked up i saw my school book had fallen off the bench, so i picked them up and went to tie my other shoe. I heared them fall again. I look up and saw one of my bullies (Doug) standing near the beanh looking down at me. "I going to sit their faggot!" I looked around and saw multiple spots to sit on the bench beyond the space i had place my belongings. I said "ok. and picked up my books and placed them at the other end of the bench. Doug walked over and smaked them off again. "The bench isn't for books, shit for brains" He yelled at me. I had finished tying my shoes and was going to be putting my school closes and books away anyway so I picked them up and went to put them in a locker.
From behind doug took my head and forced it into the locker door. I turned around and said "what the hell?" I skand the room all the other guys started rooting him on to fight me. "What's your problem i put my books away." "You are!" Pushing my sholder into a sharp edge of the lock. I pushed back when i saw he was coming in for a punch. People I thought were my friends just stood there, some even saying i deserved what was coming to me. I had no idea what was going on. He grabbed me by the shirt and shoved me into the Lost Dirty Laundry Hamper. When our coach walked in shouted at everyone to get to class.

I didn't fight. And for the rest of jounir high i had to force a place on tables because the people i had called friends showed they weren't. That day gave Doug a new purpose. He search for that adreniale rush more and more often. He knew i wouldn't fight back and him and his cronies would go out of their ways to see me suffer.

That was until I joined my Karate classes. I was a Jounier in highshcool. The last day I was bullied by him was the day I fought back. He had found out I was taking Karate and wanted to imbaris me by tackling me in front of some girls. (He became a star jock on the football team and wrestling) I flipped him over my shoulder, and pinned him to the ground. with his locking his legs and arm behind my head. That day forward they left me alone.

I didn't learn Karate to fight I learned to defend myself.

Just like I've learned to become a better critical thinker, to support my positions.
So, you did what Jesus said to do when someone wants to harm you physically.
Buy yourself a sword.
I feel sad when I hear stories like yours.
(01-08-2015 03:46 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. ~ Jesus
You don't know what He meant here. But if you are interested I can explain.

(01-08-2015 03:46 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Another bully story shorter I promise.
In my high school there were these kids that would sit at the end of the food iale and pester people for their change. Most of the time it wasn't a problem. But if they saw you got back a large amount of change they would follow you to your chair and pester you until you gave it to them. Everyday. They had money. But they wanted to get lunch then use the money that their parents gave them for lunch to buy cigarettes.

I brought my lunch so they didn't really bother me. But it was an everyday thing. You let them get away with it once and they'll keep at it. Maybe not just a cloak, maybe you shoes, maybe your money. It's supporting people becoming victimized.
Jesus didn't teach not to fight against bullies.
Jesus was teaching this:
one day come to bully when he doesn't expect and say: Are you hungry? I really want to buy a lunch for you today.
Do you know what can happen? Bully might become your best buddy. He might feel like piece of you know what.
Good teaching moment for bully. Bullies also need a chance to learn something good and noble.

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