Bible questions...
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01-08-2015, 06:34 PM
RE: Bible questions...
MARK FULTON,
Very well written. It is very good source of information. I wish many people read it.
What is your point? That there is no evidence from historians that Jesus ever lived?
I don't need this kind of evidence. I do not build my faith in Christ on history. I do not build my faith in Christ on the Biblical historical account.
All this is not important for someone who has a personal testimony of Jesus Christ.

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01-08-2015, 07:54 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(01-08-2015 06:34 PM)Alla Wrote:  MARK FULTON,
Very well written. It is very good source of information. I wish many people read it.
What is your point? That there is no evidence from historians that Jesus ever lived?
I don't need this kind of evidence. I do not build my faith in Christ on history. I do not build my faith in Christ on the Biblical historical account.
All this is not important for someone who has a personal testimony of Jesus Christ.

Thank you for your nice comments about my writing Alla. ( Alla is referring to my posts here...
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...of-Jesus).

My point is that the Jesus character depicted in the gospels, if he even existed, cannot be an accurate depiction of the real man. Therefore Christians are basing their beliefs on nonsense.

I find it disturbing that you do not build your faith in Christ on history, and it is a little bizarre that you claim you do not build your faith in Christ on the biblical account. I suggest that you do, even if you don't know it. You would never have heard of Jesus Christ if it had not been for the Bible.

What is more, you continually refer to the biblical Jesus Christ in your posts. Here is a typical example...

"When someone slaps me on my right cheek he/she doesn't attack me to do physical harm but to offend me. Kind of like spit in my face.
Stand in front of somebody and try slap him/her on their right cheek. If you are right handed person (and most of the people are )you will see how uncomfortable it is to do this.
Jesus was teaching this: if somebody tells you: "you are not very good at critical thinking" and this offends you do not fight back by offending this person.
You won't gain anything good from it.
You will gain by turning the other cheek. When someone wants to offend you even more then one time the best and the smartest thing to do is to ignore or to avoid this person.
And this is what Jesus teaches. This is what He did when lived on Earth. By doing what He did someone becomes more like Jesus. By trying to be more like Jesus someone may enter Celestial Kingdom.

About cloak. Let's say I am a Jew who lives in the first century AD. Let's say Roman soldier takes away my cloak.
He has my cloak against my will. By giving him my other cloak I tell him: "You violated me. You took from me something against my will. But now you can have something mine and it is not because you tell/order me to do this but because I choose to do so.
You can take away from me my thing but you can not take away from me who I am.
When I do this I become more like Jesus. I become more like God. I become a better person.
Roman soldier can feel like a fool. Roman soldier can have a desire to become like me which means to be like Jesus, which means to be no less than God.
How about that man whose ear was cut off and then healed by Jesus? Did he want to hurt Jesus? I bet he wanted to do this.
I wonder what He thought about Jesus after He healed him? I wonder if he became Christian?
Doing what Jesus taught to do will not make me feel oppressed but will make me feel that I am a better and a stronger person then I was before.

That is all what Jesus taught when He talked about cheek and cloak. Do you see now that Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches you beautiful principles?"


You are obviously basing your personal moral and ethical code on stuff that is written in the Bible, and what is more you are promoting it to us as the truth.

I, however, choose not to believe what is written in the Bible as the truth, as I have done my own investigations, and have found it full of lies. My post about Jesus backs up my conclusions with facts.
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01-08-2015, 07:57 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(01-08-2015 05:38 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Jesus said:
“To the man who slaps you on one cheek, give him the other cheek too,” (Luke 6:29–30, NJB) and
Translators of this version of the Bible didn't understand what Jesus was teaching here. They completely missed the point.

(01-08-2015 05:38 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth” (Matt. 5:5, NKJ.)
This encourages abuse and engenders poor self-esteem.
When Jesus was teaching about meekness He didn't teach about being submissive to the bully. He was teaching that meek person will recognize his/her own wrong doing and will repent. Repentance deserves forgiveness.
(01-08-2015 05:38 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Jesus also said something very strange about enemies:
Yes, very strange to those who do not have Holy Ghost as their Teacher.
(01-08-2015 05:38 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” (Matt. 5:44, NJB.)
This is poor advice. We should listen to our enemies’ grievances and try to sort out any disagreements, but if necessary defend ourselves. No one should love and pray for their enemies.
No, this is not what Jesus teaches to do. Jesus teaches that when we love our enemies and pray for them we are free from anger and bitterness. Anger and bitterness are bad for our spirit and for our health.
It is very hard thing to love enemy and pray for enemy. But it is not totally impossible thing to learn.
(01-08-2015 05:38 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Jesus often bad-mouthed and threatened others with violence, so he did not lead by example.
He did lead by example. But not all people understand correctly everything He teaches.

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01-08-2015, 08:10 PM
RE: Bible questions...
Alla, no amount of hermeneutic fiddling can alter what Jesus allegedly said. He is often portrayed in the Bible as an intolerant, aggressive man...

Intolerance

Christian intolerance has been, and still is, a significant cause of disharmony between the world’s people, a fact that many people, even some Christians, acknowledge. Consider the antagonism between Jews and Christians, Islamists and Christians, and between different versions of Christianity such as Protestantism and Catholicism.

It is fashionable in some circles to blame Churches, rather than the dogma itself, for Christian prejudice. Yet all Christians have a bigoted mentor. Jesus berated anyone who did not buy his message:

“Anyone who believes in the Son has eternal life, but anyone who refuses to believe in the Son will never see life: the anger of God stays on him” (John 3:33, NJB.)

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16, NJB.)

Jesus even threatened to burn or kill the outsider:

“Anyone who does not remain in me is like a branch that has been thrown away—he withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire and they are burnt” (John 15:6, NJB.) (A similar quote is repeated in Mark 6:11.)

“Then he began to approach the towns in which most of his miracles had been worked, because they refused to repent. Alas for you Chorazin! Alas for you Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you were done in Tyre or Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sack cloth and ashes, and still I tell you that it will not go as hard on Judgment day on Tyre or Sidon as with you. And as for you Capernaum, did you want to be exalted as high as heaven? You shall be thrown down in hell for if the miracles done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have been standing yet. And still, I tell you that I will not go as hard with the land of Sodom on Judgment day as with you” (Matt. 11:20–24, NJB.)

“But as for my enemies who did not want me for their king, bring them here and execute them in my presence” (Luke 19:27, NJB.)

There is no interpretation that can tone down these atrocious tirades. Jesus had an arrogant, fanatical belief in himself, and an aggressive ambition to be in charge. Jesus denounced anyone who did not worship him, and threatened violence. That is not attractive. These are not the words of someone spreading peace and goodwill.

Throughout history, many Christians in positions of power have persecuted, forcibly converted or killed heathens or heretics. Jews, Muslims, American and African natives, Catholics and Protestants have been brutalized. Christian parochialism was one of the reasons George W. Bush invaded Iraq. Imagine a world today if Jesus had consistently preached universal liberalism and love; it would probably be a far less violent and happier one!

Violence inspired by Christianity has been curtailed over the last two centuries, because humanitarian ethics have countered belligerent Christians. Some Christians, however, still unashamedly condemn unbelievers.

Threats of Hell

Jesus said,

“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! ...woe to you, blind guides...You blind fools!... You blind men!... You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?” (Matt. 23:13–34, NJB.)

“Well then, just as the darnel is gathered up and burnt in the fire, so it will be at the end of time. The Son of Man will send his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom all things that provoke offences and all who do evil, and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth” (Matt. 13:40–43, NJB.)

“Next he will say to those on his left hand ‘Go away from me with your curse upon you, to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels’’’ (Matt. 25:41, NJB.)

It is highly unlikely that the real Yeshua, a dyed in the wool Jew, would have believed in hell. Jews never have, and still do not, preach about such a place.

Jesus threatened people he disliked, including those who belonged to the wrong social groups, with eternal damnation. Yet Jesus would have had no need to browbeat people if he had made a convincing case for himself. The implication that those who offended Jesus would incur retribution (argumentum ad baculum, or literally, an “argument with a cudgel”) means Jesus resorted to intimidation after he had failed to convince them. It is evidence that Biblical authors were bullying people who balked at joining their new cult.

Jesus claimed that the love of the divine arbitrator was only granted to those who behaved. However most people today would say that true, real love, such that a parent has for a child, is unconditional. In Jesus’ scheme, God is a petty, vindictive dictator who threatens his own creation, hardly the loving character he is made out to be.

The above quotes confuse Jesus’ doctrine. Elsewhere Jesus advised people to love their enemies, bless those that curse them, and forgive seventy times seven times, so he hardly set an example by blackmailing people with threats of hell.

One wonders on what basis God decides who goes to hell? There must be borderline cases. Some Christians claim that people choose hell by “rejecting Jesus.” What does that mean? What about those who have never heard of Jesus? Have they “rejected Jesus?” Some Christians state people must “accept Jesus” to avoid hell. In most Churches “accepting Jesus” means being compliant. Evangelical people need to be in control. They know how to create, then calm, newcomers’ fears—mention hell and then convince them to embrace Jesus and conform.

What about the kids? Many adults have vivid childhood memories of being terrified by the immense, unending pain in hell. To preach hellfire to children is psychological bullying, nothing less than child abuse.

In the past, Churches often used the concept of hell to justify their own terrible behavior. They thought it gave them license to burn any helpless person they did not like; that they were just beginning the roasting, on earth, that Satan was to continue for all eternity.

The very concept of eternal punishment in hell is immoral, and those who promote it are evil. It is quite rightly an embarrassment to most modern Christians, who choose not to talk about this ancient/medieval mandate any more.
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01-08-2015, 08:24 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(01-08-2015 07:54 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Thank you for your nice comments about my writing Alla. ( Alla is referring to my posts here...
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...of-Jesus).
you're welcome.
(01-08-2015 07:54 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  My point is that the Jesus character depicted in the gospels, if he even existed, cannot be an accurate depiction of the real man. Therefore Christians are basing their beliefs on nonsense.
You are right. He was God Who had got mortal physical body.
(01-08-2015 07:54 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I find it disturbing that you do not build your faith in Christ on history,
I do not trust history 100%.
(01-08-2015 07:54 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  and it is a little bizarre that you claim you do not build your faith in Christ on the biblical account.
I didn't say that. I said that I do not build my faith in Christ on the biblical historical account. Bible is full of errors. Everybody knows this. Even those who deny it.
(01-08-2015 07:54 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I suggest that you do, even if you don't know it. You would never have heard of Jesus Christ if it had not been for the Bible.
I have Book of Mormon. Another Testament of Jesus Christ.
(01-08-2015 07:54 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You are obviously basing your personal moral and ethical code on stuff that is written in the Bible, and what is more you are promoting it to us as the truth.
I do not base my personal moral and ethical code on stuff that is in the Bible.
I can promote something as the truth but you do not have to believe it.
(01-08-2015 07:54 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I, however, choose not to believe what is written in the Bible as the truth, as I have done my own investigations, and have found it full of lies. My post about Jesus backs up my conclusions with facts.
You are right. Not everything what is written in the Bible is the truth.

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01-08-2015, 08:30 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(01-08-2015 08:10 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Alla, no amount of hermeneutic fiddling can alter what Jesus allegedly said. He is often portrayed in the Bible as an intolerant, aggressive man...

Intolerance

Christian intolerance has been, and still is, a significant cause of disharmony between the world’s people, a fact that many people, even some Christians, acknowledge. Consider the antagonism between Jews and Christians, Islamists and Christians, and between different versions of Christianity such as Protestantism and Catholicism.

It is fashionable in some circles to blame Churches, rather than the dogma itself, for Christian prejudice. Yet all Christians have a bigoted mentor. Jesus berated anyone who did not buy his message:

“Anyone who believes in the Son has eternal life, but anyone who refuses to believe in the Son will never see life: the anger of God stays on him” (John 3:33, NJB.)

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16, NJB.)

Jesus even threatened to burn or kill the outsider:

“Anyone who does not remain in me is like a branch that has been thrown away—he withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire and they are burnt” (John 15:6, NJB.) (A similar quote is repeated in Mark 6:11.)

“Then he began to approach the towns in which most of his miracles had been worked, because they refused to repent. Alas for you Chorazin! Alas for you Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you were done in Tyre or Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sack cloth and ashes, and still I tell you that it will not go as hard on Judgment day on Tyre or Sidon as with you. And as for you Capernaum, did you want to be exalted as high as heaven? You shall be thrown down in hell for if the miracles done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have been standing yet. And still, I tell you that I will not go as hard with the land of Sodom on Judgment day as with you” (Matt. 11:20–24, NJB.)

“But as for my enemies who did not want me for their king, bring them here and execute them in my presence” (Luke 19:27, NJB.)

There is no interpretation that can tone down these atrocious tirades. Jesus had an arrogant, fanatical belief in himself, and an aggressive ambition to be in charge. Jesus denounced anyone who did not worship him, and threatened violence. That is not attractive. These are not the words of someone spreading peace and goodwill.

Throughout history, many Christians in positions of power have persecuted, forcibly converted or killed heathens or heretics. Jews, Muslims, American and African natives, Catholics and Protestants have been brutalized. Christian parochialism was one of the reasons George W. Bush invaded Iraq. Imagine a world today if Jesus had consistently preached universal liberalism and love; it would probably be a far less violent and happier one!

Violence inspired by Christianity has been curtailed over the last two centuries, because humanitarian ethics have countered belligerent Christians. Some Christians, however, still unashamedly condemn unbelievers.

Threats of Hell

Jesus said,

“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! ...woe to you, blind guides...You blind fools!... You blind men!... You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?” (Matt. 23:13–34, NJB.)

“Well then, just as the darnel is gathered up and burnt in the fire, so it will be at the end of time. The Son of Man will send his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom all things that provoke offences and all who do evil, and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth” (Matt. 13:40–43, NJB.)

“Next he will say to those on his left hand ‘Go away from me with your curse upon you, to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels’’’ (Matt. 25:41, NJB.)

It is highly unlikely that the real Yeshua, a dyed in the wool Jew, would have believed in hell. Jews never have, and still do not, preach about such a place.

Jesus threatened people he disliked, including those who belonged to the wrong social groups, with eternal damnation. Yet Jesus would have had no need to browbeat people if he had made a convincing case for himself. The implication that those who offended Jesus would incur retribution (argumentum ad baculum, or literally, an “argument with a cudgel”) means Jesus resorted to intimidation after he had failed to convince them. It is evidence that Biblical authors were bullying people who balked at joining their new cult.

Jesus claimed that the love of the divine arbitrator was only granted to those who behaved. However most people today would say that true, real love, such that a parent has for a child, is unconditional. In Jesus’ scheme, God is a petty, vindictive dictator who threatens his own creation, hardly the loving character he is made out to be.

The above quotes confuse Jesus’ doctrine. Elsewhere Jesus advised people to love their enemies, bless those that curse them, and forgive seventy times seven times, so he hardly set an example by blackmailing people with threats of hell.

One wonders on what basis God decides who goes to hell? There must be borderline cases. Some Christians claim that people choose hell by “rejecting Jesus.” What does that mean? What about those who have never heard of Jesus? Have they “rejected Jesus?” Some Christians state people must “accept Jesus” to avoid hell. In most Churches “accepting Jesus” means being compliant. Evangelical people need to be in control. They know how to create, then calm, newcomers’ fears—mention hell and then convince them to embrace Jesus and conform.

What about the kids? Many adults have vivid childhood memories of being terrified by the immense, unending pain in hell. To preach hellfire to children is psychological bullying, nothing less than child abuse.

In the past, Churches often used the concept of hell to justify their own terrible behavior. They thought it gave them license to burn any helpless person they did not like; that they were just beginning the roasting, on earth, that Satan was to continue for all eternity.

The very concept of eternal punishment in hell is immoral, and those who promote it are evil. It is quite rightly an embarrassment to most modern Christians, who choose not to talk about this ancient/medieval mandate any more.
I will respond tomorrow.

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01-08-2015, 08:52 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(01-08-2015 06:34 PM)Alla Wrote:  MARK FULTON,
Very well written. It is very good source of information. I wish many people read it.
What is your point? That there is no evidence from historians that Jesus ever lived?
I don't need this kind of evidence. I do not build my faith in Christ on history. I do not build my faith in Christ on the Biblical historical account.
All this is not important for someone who has a personal testimony of Jesus Christ.

I have a personal testimony of Mortimer Bartesque, the golf god.
I build my faith on balls. Golf balls.

My god is better than your god.
Na na.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-08-2015, 10:48 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(01-08-2015 06:15 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(01-08-2015 03:46 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Why it matters to say the right over the left cheek I don't understand.
I explained.
I just read your lower band. I admire anyone that can speak more then one language.

Perhaps this is were the communication is breaking down.

I'll try explain more plainly.

You said.
Quote:When someone slaps me on my right cheek he/she doesn't attack me to do physical harm but to offend me. Kind of like spit in my face.
Stand in front of somebody and try slap him/her on their right cheek. If you are right handed person (and most of the people are )you will see how uncomfortable it is to do this.

If you are meaning it's a verbal attack. It wouldn't matter if it's the left or right hand.

If your meaning is physical. Like you said in your second part. Hitting a person in the with the front of your hand or the back of the hand isn't normally done out of kindness. It's done out of rage. And the last thing that person will have on their mind is the discomfort they would feel in their hand.

Also the way you said it, would imply that left handed people don't feel pain when they hit people in the face.





(01-08-2015 06:15 PM)Alla Wrote:  No, it will show them that you do not take offence easily. You are not easily provoked.

I'll break this part down a little more for you.

Matthew 5:38 - 42
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.


38
If some one punches you punch him back. Make things even. Someone kills your sister kill his sister. Describing things in a physical manner.

39
As stated before telling someone to turn the other cheek is bad advice.
It discourages people from actually standing up to defend themselves and protect their rights and lives.

40
Bad advice yet again. There's no good reason to set yourself up as an easily abused victim. A intelligent god would have taught people how to build a fair and cooperative society that didn't encourage victimization.

42
Everyone knows how bad this advice is. Encouraging charity is great, but no one takes this verse seriously; if your willing to give me an interest free loan regardless of my financial situation and credit rating - please PM me.


(01-08-2015 03:46 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Self respect. People's support. Enlightenment. First three that poped to mind.

(01-08-2015 06:15 PM)Alla Wrote:  Mary: Ashley you are an idiot
Ashley: No, you are an idiot.
Mary: you are batch
Ashley: you are .....
Yes, lots of self-respect. Lot's of enlightenment.

No it would be more like the conversation we are having now. One side presents at argument. Another retorts. (say something in answer to a remark) In a matter of speaking we are in a verbal battle. In this arena we probable will find more people supporting me. But dosn't if feel good when you make a point that comes across. You grow a little inside. And enlightenment, i mean threw learning.

But as you stated
Quote:I am really not good at rational thinking

Your note someone that has a easy time with reason and logic. And because of that you come off as a crazy person.

The way you described would play out more like this. in your

NegaAlla: I have a little man living in my head, that tells me to do things.
NegaSensei: You're crazy. (Slap to the right of the face)
NegaAlla: I don't have to prove myself to you the little man say's he's the best.(Turn of the head to the left side)
NegaSensei: Show this little man to me.
NegaAlla: (...walks away...)You should just accept what I say.

(01-08-2015 06:15 PM)Alla Wrote:  So, you did what Jesus said to do when someone wants to harm you physically.
Buy yourself a sword.
I feel sad when I hear stories like yours.

I defended myself. And I knew what I was doing. No harm came to him outside the shock of how fast it all happened. Around that time I had already been teaching my style of Karate for a year. All it sent was a message that I wasn't going to be pushed around anymore.

I avoid fights if they can be avoided. But I will not be a victim. If I get hit I will hit back.

Being a kid isn't easy. Being a kid that dosn't feel he has any friends is even worse.
I have other tragic tails that I wont get into. Almost being chocked to death by a small gang. Being thrown off a cliff and being beating by sticks and rocks. And all those tales no divine being came to my aid.

And i'm not alone. I always thought I had it bad till I got to college. Meeting people from all over. Some former gang members trying to change their lives. Some of the kids being bullied from their tales didn't end with them walking away with a limp or a black eye. Most of them didn't walk away at all.


(01-08-2015 06:15 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(01-08-2015 03:46 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. ~ Jesus
You don't know what He meant here. But if you are interested I can explain.

That's funny because I don't think you know what he meant here. But if you are interested I can explain.

(01-08-2015 06:15 PM)Alla Wrote:  Jesus didn't teach not to fight against bullies.
Jesus was teaching this:
one day come to bully when he doesn't expect and say: Are you hungry? I really want to buy a lunch for you today.
Do you know what can happen? Bully might become your best buddy. He might feel like piece of you know what.
Good teaching moment for bully. Bullies also need a chance to learn something good and noble.

You've obviously never been to New Jersey.

I don't know if you've seen it but you should watch the 2011 movie Bully.




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01-08-2015, 10:57 PM
RE: Bible questions...
Why, oh why, would the omnipotent creator of the universe continue to choose such unutterably inadequate humans to defend itself to non-believers?

And why, I guess I have to ask, is anyone bothering to engage with "Alla"? There are evidently language barriers, but more than that, there is simply no argument present. Just ... babel.

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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02-08-2015, 01:35 PM
RE: Bible questions...
(01-08-2015 10:57 PM)claywise Wrote:  Why, oh why, would the omnipotent creator of the universe continue to choose such unutterably inadequate humans to defend itself to non-believers?

And why, I guess I have to ask, is anyone bothering to engage with "Alla"? There are evidently language barriers, but more than that, there is simply no argument present. Just ... babel.

Practice.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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