Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
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02-11-2015, 03:20 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(01-11-2015 07:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 06:54 PM)Alla Wrote:  You don't have to verify this. If you verify then you can not have faith in God. If you don't have faith in God but you have perfect knowledge about Him then you can not do what you came to do here on Earth.
When you say "faith" I assume you mean to believe without evidence.
Without any evidence, how do you determine if a claim is true or not?

Just yesterday my 6 year old daughter asked me if I was making popcorn. I said no I am not making popcorn. She told me that I was lying and that I was making popcorn. I asked her how she knows. She told me she could see a pot on the stove which I was standing next to and a bag of popcorn cernals in my hand.
I told her that people can and do lie and that evidence never lies. I was very proud of my girl for doubting what I asserted and for instead looking towards clues and evidence and making a conclusion for herself.

Do you see it as a virtue to believe what your assumed prophets say rather than to look for clues and evidence?
Do you think I should punish my 6 year old for doubting what I tell her, for calling me a liar?
Of course I am not prophet of your god, but what if I claimed to be a prophet of your god. Do you look to verify that claim or do you have faith in me and my claims? At what point is a person to be punished for not believing or rewarded for believing (without evidence)?
(01-11-2015 06:54 PM)Alla Wrote:  Spiritual matter is "hidden mannah" . It means we are not ready to know nature of it. But it is matter. If something is immaterial it doesn't exist in nature. .
So how do you know that spiritual matter exists if you do not know its nature, if you have never detected it?
You assume your god exists and therefore you assume your spiritual matter exists. If spiritual matter exists then might solve your problem of "What is god made of". If it doesn't exist, it we will never know because no-one can prove that it doesn't exist as it is unverifiable and unfalsifiable. It seems to me that you can just make stuff up and then choose to belief in it. Is this your method of discovery of supernatural knowledge. Or do you just believe what certain other people say, e.g. your prophets, your spiritual advisors?
Ultimately, how can you tell if these advisors are making this stuff up or if they have a real method for discovery?
I will reply later today.

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02-11-2015, 03:53 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
Honestly there are more meaningful things to talk about rather than debating the shape of the earth. Like feline catnip addiction, the zombie apocalypse, and cooties outbreaks on the playground.
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02-11-2015, 04:25 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(02-11-2015 03:53 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Honestly there are more meaningful things to talk about rather than debating the shape of the earth. Like feline catnip addiction, the zombie apocalypse, and cooties outbreaks on the playground.

Is that an admission that you can't support the claim that they had no word for sphere?

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02-11-2015, 04:31 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(02-11-2015 04:25 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 03:53 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Honestly there are more meaningful things to talk about rather than debating the shape of the earth. Like feline catnip addiction, the zombie apocalypse, and cooties outbreaks on the playground.

Is that an admission that you can't support the claim that they had no word for sphere?
I cannot confirm nor deny. Tongue
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02-11-2015, 05:20 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(02-11-2015 02:54 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  there would have to be a point where there was an original God who started the whole system in the first place.
I don't believe that there is such thing as original God. According to the revelations that our God gave us there is no such thing as the first God or the last God in unlimited eternal worlds.
(02-11-2015 02:54 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Why not worship that God and cut out the middleman?
Even though there are gods many and lords many to us there is only one GOD Heavenly Father and one LORD Jesus Christ.
Why do we worship only Them and not other Gods?
Because other Gods have nothing to do with us. Other Gods didn't give us life, they didn't create our beautiful Earth, they didn't die for our sins.
There are many heavenly fathers but I have only one Heavenly Father. There are many saviors but I have only one Savior - Jesus Christ.
They bless me, They answer my questions, They guide me and They protect me. They comfort me and They warn me when there is danger. I owe them a lot. That is why I love Them, I worship Them and I am grateful to Them - God Father Elohim and God Son Yahweh(Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Ghost.

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02-11-2015, 05:30 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(02-11-2015 04:31 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 04:25 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Is that an admission that you can't support the claim that they had no word for sphere?
I cannot confirm nor deny. Tongue

Consider

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02-11-2015, 05:35 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(02-11-2015 05:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 02:54 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  there would have to be a point where there was an original God who started the whole system in the first place.
I don't believe that there is such thing as original God. According to the revelations that our God gave us there is no such thing as the first God or the last God in unlimited eternal worlds.
(02-11-2015 02:54 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Why not worship that God and cut out the middleman?
Even though there are gods many and lords many to us there is only one GOD Heavenly Father and one LORD Jesus Christ.
Why do we worship only Them and not other Gods?
Because other Gods have nothing to do with us. Other Gods didn't give us life, they didn't create our beautiful Earth, they didn't die for our sins.
There are many heavenly fathers but I have only one Heavenly Father. There are many saviors but I have only one Savior - Jesus Christ.
They bless me, They answer my questions, They guide me and They protect me. They comfort me and They warn me when there is danger. I owe them a lot. That is why I love Them, I worship Them and I am grateful to Them - God Father Elohim and God Son Yahweh(Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Ghost.
So what created the system? Who determines who becomes a God? If I become a God am I at the same level as the God who created me or is there still some kind of hierarchy? If there is still a hierarchy, who is on top?
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02-11-2015, 05:44 PM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2015 06:23 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(02-11-2015 02:24 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  As a Christian it frustrates me when people (including other Christians ) claim that the bible teaches that the earth is flat. In Isaiah 40:22 it states the earth is round and circular. The original hebrew did not have a word for sphere. They just simply called anything that was round (plates, balls, disks, orbs, ect.) to be circular. Some may argue that the bible was ahead of its time. Before Columbus went on his voyage many scientists saw the bible as flawed because it did say the earth was round. But then again I am no historian.

Let me help you with that.

Perhaps you missed it when I posted it on page 4 or so of this thread..

Let's look at the phrase of Isaiah 40:22, "the circle of the earth". There are a couple main views of this phrase. The first interpretation says that the word "circle" means "sphere" indicating that the earth is a sphere. This view seems most unlikely since we have already seen that the Hebrew word gh means "circle," and it seems very remote that it means "sphere" because of the context, and there is a better Hebrew word for "sphere," rwd. In Isaiah 22:18 the word rwd is translated "ball." If the LXX translators understood gh as "sphere," they would have used the Greek word sfairoeides. Plugging the meaning of "sphere" into every passage that gh occurs will result in awkward interpretations.

The second interpretation is that the earth is a round flat disk. Although the ancient world thought the earth was round and flat, this phrase seems to refer to the shape of the vaulted heavens above the earth from which the inhabitants look like grasshoppers. Think dinner plate.

So yes, ancients thought the world was flat, which was also indicated within the bible. No fault of the authors, they just didn't know any better, but odd that a divinely sanctioned, and some insist, god guided book for mankind, seemed not to know the earth was not a big dinner plate..once again, yet another indication no supernatural influence was involved. Just the writings of men based upon their superstitious, ignorant view of the world around them..

Some additional scriptures that seem to indicate the perspective of the time that the world was a flat disk, or a flat plane with corners...

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

corners? no no, sry it is a round sphere....ah, guess the lord and creator wasnt aware of that.

Matthew 4:8
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Astronomical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from any place. The kingdoms of Egypt, China, Greece, Crete, sections of Asia Minor, India, Maya (in Mexico), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Korea, and other settlements from these kingdoms of the world were widely distributed. This was impossible, yet another BS story by ignorant goat herders.

Job 11:9
The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.

How long is the earth exactly? lol

Job 28:24
For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;

Earth doesnt have an end, it is a big ball.


Job 37:3
He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.

ditto

Job 38:4-6
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

No corners, it isnt a big box either

Job 38:13
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

No

Jeremiah 16:19
O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

No

Daniel 4:11
The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth

No

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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02-11-2015, 05:48 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(02-11-2015 01:53 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 01:13 PM)julep Wrote:  Elizabeth Smart might disagree with you about some of these traditional values. Mormon purity culture contributed greatly to her responses when she was abducted as a girl.

If by "family values" you mean something like raising kids in a loving, stable environment where they learn to develop skills and self control and to empathize with other humans, what is particularly Mormon about that?
I agree that there are those exceptions. But as a whole, you look at a traditional Mormon family they are more likely to have a stronger and healthier relationships with each other. Why are Mormons stereotyped as having a very close knit family? I think a lot of it comes from their emphasize on quality family time. I think they reserve Sunday as a day where they only do things as a family. No video games, no going out with friends, no television. They spend Sundays actually doing things as a family. Things like board games, bible study, or just sitting around in the living room talking. Now I understand that this is not something that is restricted solely to Mormons but it shows how important and valuable quality time is to maintain a strong healthy family and it is something that more families would benefit from no mater what their religion is.

Yes, it's all warm and fuzzy and puppies and daisies until you DARE to deviate from the state mandated program.

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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02-11-2015, 05:48 PM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2015 05:55 PM by Alla.)
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(01-11-2015 07:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  When you say "faith" I assume you mean to believe without evidence.
When I say "faith" I mean "to trust" and "to act".
If you need evidence it means you don't trust and you will not act.
(01-11-2015 07:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Without any evidence, how do you determine if a claim is true or not?
I trust those who speak the word first. Then I experiment(act according to my faith). After I experiment I have results. This results I call evidence and my faith is growing because I start to have perfect knowledge of some parts that God reveals. So, I act according to my faith(I make an experiment) and I do it because I trust those who speak the word.
(01-11-2015 07:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Just yesterday my 6 year old daughter asked me if I was making popcorn. I said no I am not making popcorn. She told me that I was lying and that I was making popcorn. I asked her how she knows. She told me she could see a pot on the stove which I was standing next to and a bag of popcorn cernals in my hand.
I told her that people can and do lie and that evidence never lies. I was very proud of my girl for doubting what I asserted and for instead looking towards clues and evidence and making a conclusion for herself.
That is good. But you can also teach her another thing. You can teach her to trust you. It will be times when she has to rely on you, or to trust you without having any evidence. As father you know what she doesn't know yet. She has to trust you when you teach her things she doesn't know and doesn't understand but bad or dangerous for her. Or would you like her not to trust you and do things that are bad and dangerous for her while she is young and innocent and pure?
(01-11-2015 07:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Do you see it as a virtue to believe what your assumed prophets say rather than to look for clues and evidence?
I just trust them. I followed the council many times and I have evidence that their council is good and true. I have many evidence. because of that my faith is growing.
(01-11-2015 07:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Do you think I should punish my 6 year old for doubting what I tell her, for calling me a liar?
She said the truth. Didn't she? Why should you punish her?
(01-11-2015 07:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Of course I am not prophet of your god, but what if I claimed to be a prophet of your god. Do you look to verify that claim or do you have faith in me and my claims?
One thing is to claim to be a prophet another thing is to do what prophets of God do. Jesus said: if you don't believe Me believe my works". He also said that by "their fruits(works) we will know the difference between true prophets and false prophets.
(01-11-2015 07:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  At what point is a person to be punished for not believing or rewarded for believing (without evidence)?
Nobody is punished for not believing. But those who do not believe and do evil and do not repent will be punished. But not for eternity of course. God is not just Justice, He is both Justice and Mercy.
(01-11-2015 07:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  So how do you know that spiritual matter exists if you do not know its nature, if you have never detected it?
I just trust word of God. But even if I didn't believe it, it wouldn't be matter. It is not required for salvation. Other things are required for salvation.
(01-11-2015 07:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You assume your god exists and therefore you assume your spiritual matter exists. If spiritual matter exists then might solve your problem of "What is god made of".
I don't have to know what God is made of. It is not required for salvation.
There is a reason why I don't have perfect knowledge(I don't know everything) about God.
there is a reason why I have to live by faith. Do you know this reason?
(01-11-2015 07:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If it doesn't exist, it we will never know because no-one can prove that it doesn't exist as it is unverifiable and unfalsifiable. It seems to me that you can just make stuff up and then choose to belief in it. Is this your method of discovery of supernatural knowledge. Or do you just believe what certain other people say, e.g. your prophets, your spiritual advisors?
Ultimately, how can you tell if these advisors are making this stuff up or if they have a real method for discovery?
If you don't believe in spirit matter God will not hold you accountable. All these things I am telling you about are called "meat" by prophets. The things that are important for salvation are called "milk". If you can not digest milk, you can't eat "meat". God will not punish you for not being ready.
Bottom line: I told you a little bit about things that God revealed but they are not important for your salvation. You may deny them at this point. You don't have to believe those things.
You don't have to believe me. Did God tell you personally to believe me? I assume your answer is "no". So, God will not hold you accountable for not believing me.
You also can not trust me. You don't know me.

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