Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
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03-11-2015, 12:00 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(02-11-2015 05:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  But you can also teach her another thing. You can teach her to trust you. It will be times when she has to rely on you, or to trust you without having any evidence. As father you know what she doesn't know yet. She has to trust you when you teach her things she doesn't know and doesn't understand but bad or dangerous for her.
I don't want her to trust me. I want her to learn to take what each person says with a grain of salt. I want her to invoke critical thinking. To be able to see the flaws in what I say even though I might not see them myself.
If she learns only what I teach her then she will be limited to a place below my knowledge. I would be happy for her to surpass me.
I like to be challenged, I want to see my girl thinking, challenging.


(02-11-2015 05:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  Or would you like her not to trust you and do things that are bad and dangerous for her while she is young and innocent and pure?
She is not innocent and pure. I don't even know how you can judge someone to be as such. She must live her own life. I cannot tell her what is bad. She needs to assess for herself if she wants to do things that could be dangerous. I can't wrap her in bubble wrap. That would be a prison. My girl is a free bird.
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03-11-2015, 12:04 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(02-11-2015 02:56 PM)julep Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 01:53 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I agree that there are those exceptions. But as a whole, you look at a traditional Mormon family they are more likely to have a stronger and healthier relationships with each other. Why are Mormons stereotyped as having a very close knit family? I think a lot of it comes from their emphasize on quality family time. I think they reserve Sunday as a day where they only do things as a family. No video games, no going out with friends, no television. They spend Sundays actually doing things as a family. Things like board games, bible study, or just sitting around in the living room talking. Now I understand that this is not something that is restricted solely to Mormons but it shows how important and valuable quality time is to maintain a strong healthy family and it is something that more families would benefit from no mater what their religion is.

Exactly the same approach pertains to sacred (in the less religious sense) family time in many, many segments of the culture. Jews, Italians, Irish, Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., etc. In fact, "quality family time" is a mainstream value recommended by every child expert I have ever read--and my kid is 18, so I have read book after book after book on the subject. I'm trying to think if I have ever heard anyone advocating that families spend less quality (non electronic, non screen) time together… Not that I can recall.
No one advocates it. They just quietly neglect them and chalk it up to societal norms as they greedily pursue their own wants.
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03-11-2015, 12:06 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(02-11-2015 03:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 01:53 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I agree that there are those exceptions. But as a whole, you look at a traditional Mormon family they are more likely to have a stronger and healthier relationships with each other. Why are Mormons stereotyped as having a very close knit family? I think a lot of it comes from their emphasize on quality family time. I think they reserve Sunday as a day where they only do things as a family. No video games, no going out with friends, no television. They spend Sundays actually doing things as a family. Things like board games, bible study, or just sitting around in the living room talking. Now I understand that this is not something that is restricted solely to Mormons but it shows how important and valuable quality time is to maintain a strong healthy family and it is something that more families would benefit from no mater what their religion is.

Including no religion at all. Drinking Beverage

All the value, none of the cost. Yes
It's free jackass. And beneficial to all.
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03-11-2015, 12:10 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(02-11-2015 03:11 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 02:24 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  As a Christian it frustrates me when people (including other Christians ) claim that the bible teaches that the earth is flat. In Isaiah 40:22 it states the earth is round and circular. The original hebrew did not have a word for sphere. They just simply called anything that was round (plates, balls, disks, orbs, ect.) to be circular.

Do you have a reference for that claim? GWG recently posted something that appears to disagree. Saying they had no word for sphere does not sound credible.

Even assuming that is true, should the Hebrew word be translated as sphere everywhere it occurs or only where we now know that it is wrong? How can we tell where they meant round and where they meant sphere? If they had no word for sphere wouldn't you expect them to clarify in the text that the world is circular from every direction like a ball (or whatever object they had that could be used to compare it to)?

Quote:Some may argue that the bible was ahead of its time. Before Columbus went on his voyage many scientists saw the bible as flawed because it did say the earth was round. But then again I am no historian.

That's a common misconception. The Earth being (nearly) spherical was well known before Columbus' time and while many uneducated might not have known that, the "scientists" would have. I've seen claims that Columbus believed the diameter of the Earth to be smaller than it actually is but there was no serious argument that it was flat.

If we can't determine whether they meant circle or sphere then the best we can say is that we don't know what they actually thought since the text is ambiguous. It can't be ahead of its time if it doesn't convey a specific meaning but is being interpreted in light of later knowledge.
The Sumarians actually knew not only that the earth was somewhat oblong, but that it wobbled on its axis.
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03-11-2015, 12:15 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(02-11-2015 05:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 02:54 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  there would have to be a point where there was an original God who started the whole system in the first place.
I don't believe that there is such thing as original God. According to the revelations that our God gave us there is no such thing as the first God or the last God in unlimited eternal worlds.
(02-11-2015 02:54 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Why not worship that God and cut out the middleman?
Even though there are gods many and lords many to us there is only one GOD Heavenly Father and one LORD Jesus Christ.
Why do we worship only Them and not other Gods?
Because other Gods have nothing to do with us. Other Gods didn't give us life, they didn't create our beautiful Earth, they didn't die for our sins.
There are many heavenly fathers but I have only one Heavenly Father. There are many saviors but I have only one Savior - Jesus Christ.
They bless me, They answer my questions, They guide me and They protect me. They comfort me and They warn me when there is danger. I owe them a lot. That is why I love Them, I worship Them and I am grateful to Them - God Father Elohim and God Son Yahweh(Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Ghost.
Disregard my previous post to you unless you otherwise feel compelled.
Thank you.
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03-11-2015, 12:27 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 12:06 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 03:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  Including no religion at all. Drinking Beverage

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It's free jackass. And beneficial to all.

Beneficial to all?

Oh, do tell jackass, do tell how systematic discrimination and indoctrination is beneficial to all.

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03-11-2015, 12:28 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(02-11-2015 09:56 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 07:28 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Really not sure what you are getting at, but I hope your vent helped you. You can continue to do what your heart desires, as can I. Most science isn't proof of too much. It's mostly educated guesses and theories that don't even correlate with one another. I personally take scientific evidence very seriously, but science in no way refuted God, nor does it explain the origin of our existence. To be honest I would most probably still be atheist if I hadn't literally been saved by God or an angel or Jesus or messenger, or whatever you want to call it. You can say I am delusional, you can say the Creator is a myth, but you can't back it up at all with proof. I, on the other hand have proof of what I know. It isn't proof to any third party like scientifically tested theories but it is proof for me. I've read a considerable amount of Sumerian texts. The Torah doesn't seem to be copied from it in my personal opinion. Do you prefer attempting to pick apart the Torah over other books because it is the most convenient for your purposes? Why not try it with the Gita, or the book of Enoch, or even the Exeter book? Everyone knows the Torah has discrepancies and other flaws by man. There are entire books of the OT that describe how God's people went all over the land wiping out opposition. Granted, this was an era of war, but the reason it goes into detail about the many tribes that they killed and totally decimated is to show that God's word will always be fulfilled. Anyway, basically there are parts of the OT that I wonder about, but the vast majority of the book is inspired by God and written by men that held firm to their beliefs. You ask what knowledge they had as opposed to us. Well they had direction. They looked after one another. They knew th st all existence wasn't caused by chance, chaos, or man. They knew that they didn't know everything, but what they did know was pertinent to their existence and the rest of it too. Today people actually think there is no right and wrong, no good or bad, that all is what you make it and it is take what you want or don't get it. They knew a lot of things that we seem to neglect. You mention nature as if it isn't of God. I don't really understand what makes existence or nature not of the thing that started it or made it. What laws of nature where they unaware of that lead them lie about existence? What made them ignorant to reality? I'm honestly curious of your opinion as you seem to consider yourself an expert on what is real and what can deemed false based on lack of evidence. Why do you adamantly refute things because someone else hasn't shown them to you yet. Don't you understand that just because something hasn't been proven one way or another doesn't mean it can be excused as a possibility? Science can explain a good bit, but there is a good bit that it hasn't even really scratched the surface of.

Thanks,
Peace

Paragraphs, man. For the love of god and all that is holy, paragraphs.
K
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03-11-2015, 12:42 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(02-11-2015 10:48 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 07:37 PM)Alla Wrote:  why? could you explain it, please?
Note: I didn't say: we can't learn and grow without faith in God. I said that we can not learn and grow without faith.

Faith is, used in religious context, "belief without evidence, or in the face of contradictory evidence".

It's a great way to be wrong about everything, and conveniently stay wrong about everything; because there is no way to correct for any mistakes. If you have "faith" in the wrong answers, you will just continue to be wrong; and with no means to correct the situation because you have "faith" you are right.

Faith is a human failure, a shortcoming, a flawed way of thinking; it is anything but a virtue or anything to be upheld or aspired to. It represents the very worst in human thinking.

We should all strive to do without it, for the betterment of the entire species and everything else we share this planet with.
You do not know what you are talking about.

Faith is reciprocal. It is without limit. It can literally make what some deem impossible, possible. It can strengthen without bound. It can heal and renew. If any can achieve a point that God could actually have faith in them then there would be absolutely no limit for that individual under the direction of God.
If and when someone is in full Faith of God, and as such without sin, or blemish, they are guided wholly by God, and as such protected, and provided for,for his purpose. I can barely grasp the actual possibilities of true Faith in God. The things I just explained are things I know from experience, and I have yet to be completely in full Faith of what I know from God. But I still have faith in God and know his work for me is not finished.
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03-11-2015, 01:01 AM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2015 09:17 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 12:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 10:48 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Faith is, used in religious context, "belief without evidence, or in the face of contradictory evidence".

It's a great way to be wrong about everything, and conveniently stay wrong about everything; because there is no way to correct for any mistakes. If you have "faith" in the wrong answers, you will just continue to be wrong; and with no means to correct the situation because you have "faith" you are right.

Faith is a human failure, a shortcoming, a flawed way of thinking; it is anything but a virtue or anything to be upheld or aspired to. It represents the very worst in human thinking.

We should all strive to do without it, for the betterment of the entire species and everything else we share this planet with.
You do not know what you are talking about.


Fuck you. People had "faith" the world was flat, they were wrong. People have "faith" that giving their children bleach enemas will cure them of autism, instead they kill their kids. People have "faith" that praying to their god will save their children instead of seeking proper medical treatment, and those same children die painfully of easily preventable and treatable diabetes.

People have "faith" in all these things.

They're demonstrably wrong, and their "faith" not only insulates them from the truth, it is an accessory to very real pain, harm, suffering, and death.

So fuck you.


(03-11-2015 12:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Faith is reciprocal.


"Faith" in a god that is not demonstrable cannot, by definition, be reciprocal.

Facepalm


(03-11-2015 12:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  It is without limit.


Indeed, stupidity and credulity are without limit.


(03-11-2015 12:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  It can literally make what some deem impossible, possible.


No, it can not. Having "faith" that getting a man on the moon didn't make it possible, demonstrably science did. Having "faith" didn't make powered flight possible, physics and ingenuity did.


Plus there is a huge gap between "having faith in" something, such as the Earth's gravity, because it has been shown to be demonstrably consistent. Or "having faith in" your parents, which is a colloquial way of saying that you trust them, because they have been demonstrably trustworthy.

There is a huge gap between that usage of the word faith, and "having faith" in an indemonstrable god, or "having faith" this same indemonstrable god will intervene in your loved one's cancer on their behalf.


(03-11-2015 12:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  It can strengthen without bound. It can heal and renew.


It can and often does strengthen ignorance and hate, it can and often does harm and end life.


(03-11-2015 12:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  If any can achieve a point that God could actually have faith in them then there would be absolutely no limit for that individual under the direction of God.


The same woo-woo word salad bullshit pedaled by new-age healers and spiritual hipsters.


(03-11-2015 12:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  If and when someone is in full Faith of God, and as such without sin, or blemish, they are guided wholly by God, and as such protected, and provided for,for his purpose.


Sin, another entirely indemonstrable and supposed facet of reality. You need to prove it actually exists, not merely assert it's existence as part of your bullshit salad.


(03-11-2015 12:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I can barely grasp the actual possibilities of true Faith in God.


Because it's purposely vague bullshit, kept vague because your god concept withers under scrutiny, and thus must hide in ambiguity.


(03-11-2015 12:42 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  The things I just explained are things I know from experience, and I have yet to be completely in full Faith of what I know from God. But I still have faith in God and know his work for me is not finished.


Experience is not evidence, or else bad acid trips would be evidence of talking pink elephants.

I said that "faith" in a religious context was "belief without evidence, or in the face of contradictory evidence".

You say you have "faith" in your god, and yet you have no evidence for him. You have just proven my fucking point, while telling me I don't know what I'm talking about. You are a very special kind of stupid. Drinking Beverage

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03-11-2015, 01:09 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
TheMrBillShow,

God created nature. Just because science can't explain something doesn't mean it's "supernatural". I'm not sure how it could be tested. That's not the point. The point is that many claim "evolution...science". But as you just stated; those don't refute God at all. Who in the hell stated that evolution doesn't work within a watchmaker framework?(not that I adhear to that particular framework only) Waaaait a second. Sorry bigetty pricks. Not y'all, damned manipulating, hypocritical people.
Evolution is true to some extent, but it is the advancement of existence as a whole. There is a way to evolve exponentially farther than the point we seem stuck at now. And it doesn't involve survival of the fittest in any violent, negative way.

I know what I said about war in the OT. I stated many more than one reason that this is in the bible. None of which exactly justify it so much as excuse it as a combination of many things such as human error, and manipulation of God's word in some way. I do not think that the Jews actually completely desimated all of those people under the true direction of God. It is possible that even they where mislead somehow. It was after the death of Moses, and the bible tells us that they often went of the chosen path many times. This could actually be one of the reasons that GOD prescribed so much punishment on these people. I really am not sure. What I do know is that it doesn't align well with other scripture or what I know personally of our direction under God.
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