Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
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03-11-2015, 01:13 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmosflat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(02-11-2015 11:11 PM)TheMrBillShow Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 07:28 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I personally take scientific evidence very seriously, but science in no way refuted God, nor does it explain the origin of our existence.

Since science is a means to discover the workings of the natural world and god is, by definition, supernatural, how do you figure science having anything to say on the subject at all? What means is there to detect the supernatural? We'd have to know this before science could even begin to address the question of god.

And I'm not sure how you're defining "existence" in the context you've used it but the study of human evolution is a fascinating one. Far more intricate, lovely, and compelling than any myth cooked up in our ignorance. Give it a whirl sometime. You might find it of worth.

(02-11-2015 07:28 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  There are entire books of the OT that describe how God's people went all over the land wiping out opposition. Granted, this was an era of war, but the reason it goes into detail about the many tribes that they killed and totally decimated is to show that God's word will always be fulfilled.

Can you please do me a favor? I'd like you to really think about what you're saying here. You're basically rationalizing genocide. This god is willing to allow the wholesale slaughter of entire groups of people. Think about what that means. The elderly, the disabled, the sick, children, pregnant women- all wiped out in brutal fashion but, apparently all A-OK because it convinces people that the word of their god has been fulfilled. Can you understand how psychotic that sounds to the rest of us?

(02-11-2015 07:28 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Anyway, basically there are parts of the OT that I wonder about, but the vast majority of the book is inspired by God and written by men that held firm to their beliefs.

And we know this because of what, exactly? Also, if the "vast majority" of the book is divinely inspired, how can we tell which parts are and which aren't? Why would god risk having even a bit of his book mistakenly written by fallible humans? How about leaving no rooming for error? Isn't eternity in the balance? Why the ambiguity?
Oh yeah. God didn't risk anything. It's plan will be carried out regardless. What is at risk is our existence as we know it.
He left our fortune in our hands. It is part of his continual gift to us along with dominion over all we observe, infinite potential, and free will/ responsibility.
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03-11-2015, 01:17 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 01:13 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 11:11 PM)TheMrBillShow Wrote:  Since science is a means to discover the workings of the natural world and god is, by definition, supernatural, how do you figure science having anything to say on the subject at all? What means is there to detect the supernatural? We'd have to know this before science could even begin to address the question of god.

And I'm not sure how you're defining "existence" in the context you've used it but the study of human evolution is a fascinating one. Far more intricate, lovely, and compelling than any myth cooked up in our ignorance. Give it a whirl sometime. You might find it of worth.


Can you please do me a favor? I'd like you to really think about what you're saying here. You're basically rationalizing genocide. This god is willing to allow the wholesale slaughter of entire groups of people. Think about what that means. The elderly, the disabled, the sick, children, pregnant women- all wiped out in brutal fashion but, apparently all A-OK because it convinces people that the word of their god has been fulfilled. Can you understand how psychotic that sounds to the rest of us?


And we know this because of what, exactly? Also, if the "vast majority" of the book is divinely inspired, how can we tell which parts are and which aren't? Why would god risk having even a bit of his book mistakenly written by fallible humans? How about leaving no rooming for error? Isn't eternity in the balance? Why the ambiguity?
Oh yeah. God didn't risk anything. It's plan will be carried out regardless. What is at risk is our existence as we know it.
He left our fortune in our hands. It is part of his continual gift to us along with dominion over all we observe, infinite potential, and free will/ responsibility.


You cannot cry "free-will" when your petulant invisible pan-dimensional space wizard threatens all with eternal torture if they use that "free-will" in a way he doesn't approve of. Drinking Beverage


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03-11-2015, 01:17 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 01:09 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  God created nature. Just because science can't explain something doesn't mean it's "supernatural". I'm not sure how it could be tested. That's not the point. The point is that many claim "evolution...science". But as you just stated; those don't refute God at all. Who in the hell stated that evolution doesn't work within a watchmaker framework?(not that I adhear to that particular framework only) Waaaait a second. Sorry bigetty pricks. Not y'all, damned manipulating, hypocritical people.
Evolution is true to some extent, but it is the advancement of existence as a whole. There is a way to evolve exponentially farther than the point we seem stuck at now. And it doesn't involve survival of the fittest in any violent, negative way.

Okay.. I'm pretty sure you've got things a little backwards there Pops.

The scientific method is used to explain that which we see going on in the reality around us. In the things that we find as we look at the earth, the other planets, Suns and star etc.

T9o then say your idea of a deity is some how both 'natural' as well as some how 'being greater than'.. Well.. that doesn't make any sens.

If your deity is natural... how do people go about detecting it? How does it go about interacting with everything?

If the deity is 'supernatural'? That's a whole different can of worms to think/talk about. Ghosts are also 'Supernatural', what's your belief in them?

(03-11-2015 01:09 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I know what I said about war in the OT. I stated many more than one reason that this is in the bible. None of which exactly justify it so much as excuse it as a combination of many things such as human error, and manipulation of God's word in some way. I do not think that the Jews actually completely disseminated all of those people under the true direction of God. It is possible that even they where mislead somehow. It was after the death of Moses, and the bible tells us that they often went of the chosen path many times. This could actually be one of the reasons that GOD prescribed so much punishment on these people. I really am not sure. What I do know is that it doesn't align well with other scripture or what I know personally of our direction under God.

And... we should believe said book again, why?

Good to see your posting getting clearer! Thumbsup
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03-11-2015, 01:21 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 01:13 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Oh yeah. God didn't risk anything. It's plan will be carried out regardless. What is at risk is our existence as we know it.
He left our fortune in our hands. It is part of his continual gift to us along with dominion over all we observe, infinite potential, and free will/ responsibility.

*Sigh*

IF your deity isn't going to lose or risk anything and everything is going to unfold as they have dictated... then humans are puppets/robots/automita with NO free will.

Everything is predetermined and we mere mortals cannot change fate.

IF everything we do some how effects AND changes things and your deity is happy to allow such things to be changed... Then your deity now has limits that mortals can effect/affect/change/adjust.

Which is it Pops? You can't have both.
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03-11-2015, 01:21 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 12:27 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 12:06 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  It's free jackass. And beneficial to all.

Beneficial to all?

Oh, do tell jackass, do tell how systematic discrimination and indoctrination is beneficial to all.
If you ever paid attention to anything I said instead of just ridiculing me you would see that I do not adhere to any particular doctrine that divides or holds any over any other in inequality.
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03-11-2015, 01:34 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 01:21 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 12:27 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Beneficial to all?

Oh, do tell jackass, do tell how systematic discrimination and indoctrination is beneficial to all.
If you ever paid attention to anything I said instead of just ridiculing me you would see that I do not adhere to any particular doctrine that divides or holds any over any other in inequality.

I don't see how this sits well with your pro-slavery position.

Dodgy

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03-11-2015, 02:00 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
EvolutionKills,

There is a difference in having blind faith in things that you don't understand and having faith in God.

God is demonstrated to those who truly have Faith.

You make the same mistake of some religious. All is of God. Healing a child with modern medical procedures and doctors is the work of God. Technological advancement is the the work of God, as man is too the work of God. That's similar to saying that the process of evolution is the work of God, as all existence is, you guessed it, the work of God.

Your silly. You can have faith in your parents sure. You can tell someone about it. But would they ever experience that Faith for themselves without too being their child? Faith leads to individual demonstratability and verification. Does this mean that some can be lead wrong and be convinced they are right by blind faith? Sure. But that isn't what I am talking about.

By the way; if you to. an make this distinction then why all the negativity. As if it is my fault people do stupid shit.

No, you speak or pride and greed, not true Faith and rightious living under God.

Woo woo word salad Bs. You sure are a whiny little thing aren't you. I really feel bad for you. What I speak isn't woo. I will gladly face pain without end or death at this very moment is what I say is bs, or fluffed up for the masses.

Alright, let me explain again that sin is synonymous with greed and things that caused a negative effect on existence. Prove it exists? Politics, mass murders, child abuse just a couple of examples. Are you one of those people that thing there is no right and wrong? No morality? Oh, wait, you may be, you think everything happened from chance don't you? Like chaos, or survival of the fittest type stuff? Yeah, that doesn't lead to negative outcomes at all, ever...

It's not a consept. I don't mean to be vague, and can go into detail on any particular you would like. I cannot fully grasp what utter complete pure Faith might lead to because of the infinite nature of the subject matter, and my limited perception of things that have yet to happen.

Pretty sure science relies on repeatable outcomes. My outcomes have been repeated.

No I said I have my proof daily. And that your proof can be attained by you alone. I never said that I could prove anything to you, or that God could be proven by a third party other than God.

Your point was that Faith was useless misdirection. I stated that it is quite useful in the right context. How did I prove your point? Never mind, really.

Can you at least grasp that evolution can still work even though God made everything?
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03-11-2015, 02:02 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 01:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 01:13 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Oh yeah. God didn't risk anything. It's plan will be carried out regardless. What is at risk is our existence as we know it.
He left our fortune in our hands. It is part of his continual gift to us along with dominion over all we observe, infinite potential, and free will/ responsibility.


You cannot cry "free-will" when your petulant invisible pan-dimensional space wizard threatens all with eternal torture if they use that "free-will" in a way he doesn't approve of. Drinking Beverage


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Sure I can. You really think we have all we have with the ability to destroy all existence as we know it, and yet not be held responsible for our actions?
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03-11-2015, 02:43 AM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2015 03:11 AM by EvolutionKills.)
Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  EvolutionKills,

There is a difference in having blind faith in things that you don't understand and having faith in God.


Without evidence for your god, your faith is blind. Thanks for trying to obfuscate the point, but fuck you.


(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  God is demonstrated to those who truly have Faith.


If he was demonstrable, we wouldn't need faith; we would have evidence. Stop trying to hide the fact that you don't have any evidence, and thus your "faith" is exactly as I described, "belief without evidence, or in the face of contradictory evidence".

Fucking just own up to it asshole.


(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  You make the same mistake of some religious. All is of God.


That's an assertion, and without evidence, can be dismissed as the empty and baseless bullshit you've just pulled out of your ass.


(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Healing a child with modern medical procedures and doctors is the work of God.


No, it's the work of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Now prove me wrong asshole.

See? I can assert magical bullshit too.


(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Technological advancement is the the work of God, as man is too the work of God.


No, it's the work of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Now prove me wrong asshole.

See? I can assert magical bullshit too.


(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  That's similar to saying that the process of evolution is the work of God, as all existence is, you guessed it, the work of God.


No, it's the work of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Now prove me wrong asshole.

See? I can assert magical bullshit too.


(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Your silly. You can have faith in your parents sure. You can tell someone about it. But would they ever experience that Faith for themselves without too being their child?


My parent's friend can also have faith in their demonstrable trustworthiness you tool. My point is that you're doing your best on obfuscate the fact that you have no evidence, and thus your "faith" matches my definition; you just refuse to own up to you you spineless twit.


(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Faith leads to individual demonstratability and verification.


If it's not independent and repeatable, it is not demonstrable. Thanks again, but your reading comprehension is still shit, and your lying and obfuscation is not amusing.


(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Does this mean that some can be lead wrong and be convinced they are right by blind faith? Sure. But that isn't what I am talking about.


Of course not, because you cannot fathom how your "belief without evidence, or in the face of contradictory evidence" is any different than other people's "belief without evidence, or in the face of contradictory evidence". You're just refusing to own up to the fact that your "faith" has no foundation outside of your own emotions, and those emotions are not evidence for you unless they're also evidence for people with diametrically opposed and mutually exclusive claims to "faith" than yours. You have no way to dismiss other people's "faith" claims, other than to pretend you have evidence, but you do not, which is why you're lying so much to try to cover that fact.


(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  By the way; if you to. an make this distinction then why all the negativity. As if it is my fault people do stupid shit.


You are an enabler of stupid shit, you promote and champion flawed ways of thinking that can be demonstrably shown to cause harm.

You are the problem.


(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  No, you speak or pride and greed, not true Faith and rightious living under God.


I speak of evidence, of which you have none, and so your continued protestation of my definition of "faith" continues to look both disingenuous and flaccid.


(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Woo woo word salad Bs. You sure are a whiny little thing aren't you. I really feel bad for you. What I speak isn't woo. I will gladly face pain without end or death at this very moment is what I say is bs, or fluffed up for the masses.


Great, go die for your lies and feel entitled about it somewhere else. Buddhist monks lit themselves on fire and burned to death in the streets of Vietnam in protest of the American occupation and war. I invite you to show us the strength of your conviction.

But the strength of your conviction still isn't evidence for your "faith".


(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Alright, let me explain again that sin is synonymous with greed and things that caused a negative effect on existence. Prove it exists? Politics, mass murders, child abuse just a couple of examples.


That doesn't mesh, because the Bible considers "sin" such things that have no negative effects and cause no harm, such as doing work on the Sabbath, wearing fabric with mixed fibers, or eating pigs and shrimp.

I didn't write the book, but you're the one defending it.


(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Are you one of those people that thing there is no right and wrong? No morality?


Morality and ethics are subjective human constructs that can and do change over time, and we have no evidence to think they are anything but.

In fact, your Bible is evidence in support of this; the Christians held slightly different morality and ethics than those held by the Jews, and since then Christianity itself has splintered and it's thousands of different denominations all have different takes on it. Funny how in supposedly all of them praying to the same 'one true god', that so many of them can get very different answers to various moral questions; and none of their answers are any more evidently truer than yours (which is to say, they're all equally unfalsifiable and indemonstrable).


(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Oh, wait, you may be, you think everything happened from chance don't you? Like chaos, or survival of the fittest type stuff? Yeah, that doesn't lead to negative outcomes at all, ever...


The universe doesn't give a fuck about you, you are not a special snowflake.

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(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  It's not a consept.


I have no idea what a 'consept' is. But as for concept, god is a concept; and short of evidence, he's not anything more than that.


(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I don't mean to be vague, and can go into detail on any particular you would like.


Details without evidence are not relevant details. I can give you the weight of a Elder Red Dragon according to the D&D Draconomicon, but that doesn't' make dragons real; it's not evidence in favor of the actual existence of fire-breathing flying mega-fauna.

[Image: red_dragon1_1280.jpg]

^^Not evidence for dragons outside of fiction.


(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I cannot fully grasp what utter complete pure Faith might lead to because of the infinite nature of the subject matter, and my limited perception of things that have yet to happen.


Do you have evidence for your beliefs? No? Well, that's why you have "faith", because you lack evidence; it's as simple as that. No need for ephemeral or woo bullshit, you simply lack evidence; full stop.


(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Pretty sure science relies on repeatable outcomes. My outcomes have been repeated.


Science relies on observable and objectively demonstrable and repeatable evidence; your emotions fail to meet that criteria by a long country mile. But once again, your obfuscation and purposeful lying is not appreciated, so fucking stop trying to equivocate your bullshit you fucking asshole.


(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  No I said I have my proof daily. And that your proof can be attained by you alone. I never said that I could prove anything to you, or that God could be proven by a third party other than God.


Right, no evidence, Your continued belief therefore matches my definition of "faith", which still is "belief without evidence, or in the face of contradictory evidence".

Done and done. Now stop being a bitch about it.


(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Your point was that Faith was useless misdirection. I stated that it is quite useful in the right context. How did I prove your point? Never mind, really.


No, you just have a bullshit, vague, and ephemeral definition for "faith" that tries to hide your complete lack of evidence. But in context, as I defined it, it's clearly not good or something to be aspired to.

And you've yet to show that your use of the word "faith" is at all different than I described. You're doing your best to hide it, but you're failing miserably.


(03-11-2015 02:00 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Can you at least grasp that evolution can still work even though God made everything?


Can you at least grasp that nobody needs to take any of your assertions seriously without evidence?

No?

Go fuck yourself then. Drinking Beverage

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03-11-2015, 02:48 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 02:02 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 01:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  You cannot cry "free-will" when your petulant invisible pan-dimensional space wizard threatens all with eternal torture if they use that "free-will" in a way he doesn't approve of. Drinking Beverage


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Sure I can. You really think we have all we have with the ability to destroy all existence as we know it, and yet not be held responsible for our actions?


Actions have consequences. Doesn't mean your god exists. Drinking Beverage

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