Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
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03-11-2015, 10:15 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 10:12 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 10:07 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Least, I think that's what you wanted to post. Getting the "[ ]" things right can be a pain.


That second quote is me, not Pops.

Ah, will edit/fix. Was really not sure, even after opening the page up to have a look.
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03-11-2015, 10:21 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(01-11-2015 06:42 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  I will just place this here...

Biblical flat world

The phrase of Isaiah 40:22, "the circle of the earth" is very controversial. There are a couple main views of this phrase. The first interpretation says that the word "circle" means "sphere" indicating that the earth is a sphere. This view seems most unlikely since we have already seen that the Hebrew word gh means "circle," and it seems very remote that it means "sphere" because of the context, and there is a better Hebrew word for "sphere," rwd. In Isaiah 22:18 the word rwd is translated "ball." If the LXX translators understood gh as "sphere," they would have used the Greek word sfairoeides. Plugging the meaning of "sphere" into every passage that gh occurs will result in awkward interpretations.

The second interpretation is that the earth is a round flat disk. Although the ancient world thought the earth was round and flat, this phrase seems to refer to the shape the vaulted heavens above the earth from which the inhabitants look like grasshoppers.

this same fictional book further purports the world is flat,

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

corners? no no, sry it is a round sphere....ah, guess the lord and creator wasnt aware of that.

Matthew 4:8
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Astronomical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from any place. The kingdoms of Egypt, China, Greece, Crete, sections of Asia Minor, India, Maya (in Mexico), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Korea, and other settlements from these kingdoms of the world were widely distributed.

Job 11:9
The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.

Job 28:24
For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;

Job 37:3
He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.

Job 38:4-6
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:13
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

Jeremiah 16:19
O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

Daniel 4:11
The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth

GwoG, this is good stuff and really interesting. I'd love to read more about it, can you provide your source(s)? Thanks! Smile

**Crickets** -- God
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03-11-2015, 10:24 AM
Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 10:01 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 06:56 AM)unfogged Wrote:  You have no understanding of what science is or does. You have shown that repeatedly. You are a blind, ignorant fool.

I test things quite often. Just because I can't test them for you to show you, doesn't mean I blindly follow anything.

If you can't test them in such a way that others can observe and evaluate then you aren't testing anything. That's just inane.

Quote:Your defence is weak. Call me crazy and arrogant all you want. It has little to do with you being a closed minded hypocrite based on absolutely no proof of what you claim.

What exactly have I claimed? I call you crazy and arrogant because you exhibit those qualities in most everything you post. My mind is closed to ignorant fools who make unsubstantiated claims and if you think that is insulting or demeaning then you show again how irrational you truly are.

Quote:At least I have personal proof and don't go around telling people they need mental help because they don't agree with me.

I don't tell people that because they don't agree with me. I tell you that because it is my honest assessment of your mental state based on your posts. You make grandiose claims with no evidence. You think that gods/angels/whatever talk to you and give you understanding of the universe. I think you need serious help.

Quote:I'm bored with you. Your defences are tired and based in personal belief with no evidence to back them. No shit irony.

Recognizing irony is a good step but you are still wrong. I'm not the one making claims based in personal belief, I'm asking you to provide evidence for any of the claims that you make. Until you do there is zero reason not to dismiss you as a complete crackpot.

I note that you didn't actually deny anything that refuted your nonsensical ramblings about god not telling the Hebrews to commit genocide (according to the scriptures anyway). When are you going to understand that nobody with a shred of common sense is going to accept any of your crap without actual evidence to back it up? It is way past time to put up or shut up Pops.

Quote: Got work will be back later

Thanks for the warning.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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03-11-2015, 10:33 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 10:10 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  This is just a general question to anyone who wants to answer. Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about someone who claims to have had a vision of some kind where God actually spoke to them and was so convinced in his experience that despite knowing there could be a reasonable explanation in the realms of Psychology and Physiology he believed it to be true.

I know this is a run on sentence... but eh.

I think they are foolish to believe it, especially if they understand how it could be explained without needing a god. The natural explanation is plausible and the most they should believe is that they had an unexplained experience.

I'd be a lot more impressed with claims of visions if they ever provided information that could be tested and which the person could not have known. People claim to have had contact with gods or aliens or whatever and come away with "we all need to love each other" or "god is in control" or other very vague claims. The sentiments are often admirable, but there's no reason to suspect that they require divine origin.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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03-11-2015, 10:57 AM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2015 11:09 AM by jason_delisle.)
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 10:33 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 10:10 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  This is just a general question to anyone who wants to answer. Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about someone who claims to have had a vision of some kind where God actually spoke to them and was so convinced in his experience that despite knowing there could be a reasonable explanation in the realms of Psychology and Physiology he believed it to be true.

I know this is a run on sentence... but eh.

I think they are foolish to believe it, especially if they understand how it could be explained without needing a god. The natural explanation is plausible and the most they should believe is that they had an unexplained experience.

I'd be a lot more impressed with claims of visions if they ever provided information that could be tested and which the person could not have known. People claim to have had contact with gods or aliens or whatever and come away with "we all need to love each other" or "god is in control" or other very vague claims. The sentiments are often admirable, but there's no reason to suspect that they require divine origin.
Lets say that this person had no history of psychological disorders and no evidence of anything physical (drugs, brain injury, unintentional inhalation of chemicals, ect) Would there then be a mutual understanding the person's claim would appear to be delusional but due to the lack of any evidence to prove or disprove such an experience it would be labeled as "I cannot confirm or deny the legitimacy of the claim"?

I am only bringing this up after putting some thought into the testimony of the apostle Paul who claimed to have had a vision from Jesus. Assuming that the account as described in the bible is accurate (and I completely understand that it may not but just for the discussion let's assume the account was accurate), what could be some possible explanations for such a claim? How can someone who persecuted and killed Christians have all of a sudden make a complete 180 and become so convinced by his claim that he then dedicated his life to the Christian cause and eventually die from it?

Now I am not a doctor or a psychological expert by any means but could an experience like that have occurred as a result of blunt force head trauma from falling off a horse?
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03-11-2015, 10:58 AM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?



Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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03-11-2015, 11:43 AM
Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(02-11-2015 02:24 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  In Isaiah 40:22 it states the earth is round and circular.
Not exactly; Isaiah states that the earth is a "circle". It doesn't mention the word "round".

Additionally, Daniel 4:11 says "the tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth". A sphere has no "ends", only a disc could be described—loosely—as having ends.

And again, Revelation 7 says "after this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree". Obviously, a sphere doesn't have corners! Admittedly, a disc can have four cardinal "points", but not corners in any conceivable way.

(02-11-2015 02:24 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Before Columbus went on his voyage many scientists saw the bible as flawed [ citation? ] because it did say the earth was round.
Nope. In the 2nd century CE, Claudius Ptolemy wrote his "Almagest," the mathematical and astronomical treatise on planetary shapes and motions, which described the spherical earth. This text was well known throughout educated Europe in the time of Columbus.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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03-11-2015, 11:56 AM
Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 01:09 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Evolution is true to some extent, but it is the advancement of existence as a whole.

Could you please clarify exactly to what extent you do accept the theory of evolution? Do you accept its 3.5 billion year time-frame, or do you instead accept a young-earth 6,500 year period? Do you accept that evolution is a change in the heritable traits of biological populations over successive generations?

I also don't understand this phrase: the advancement of existence as a whole. Could you elaborate?

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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03-11-2015, 12:11 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 10:57 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 10:33 AM)unfogged Wrote:  I think they are foolish to believe it, especially if they understand how it could be explained without needing a god. The natural explanation is plausible and the most they should believe is that they had an unexplained experience.

I'd be a lot more impressed with claims of visions if they ever provided information that could be tested and which the person could not have known. People claim to have had contact with gods or aliens or whatever and come away with "we all need to love each other" or "god is in control" or other very vague claims. The sentiments are often admirable, but there's no reason to suspect that they require divine origin.
Lets say that this person had no history of psychological disorders and no evidence of anything physical (drugs, brain injury, unintentional inhalation of chemicals, ect) Would there then be a mutual understanding the person's claim would appear to be delusional but due to the lack of any evidence to prove or disprove such an experience it would be labeled as "I cannot confirm or deny the legitimacy of the claim"?

I am only bringing this up after putting some thought into the testimony of the apostle Paul who claimed to have had a vision from Jesus. Assuming that the account as described in the bible is accurate (and I completely understand that it may not but just for the discussion let's assume the account was accurate), what could be some possible explanations for such a claim? How can someone who persecuted and killed Christians have all of a sudden make a complete 180 and become so convinced by his claim that he then dedicated his life to the Christian cause and eventually die from it?

Now I am not a doctor or a psychological expert by any means but could an experience like that have occurred as a result of blunt force head trauma from falling off a horse?

Google is your friend: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2660156/

The National Institutes of Health Wrote:Have you ever encountered a patient who reported isolated visual hallucinations but did not have any other symptoms of delirium or psychosis? Have you wondered which medical and neurologic illnesses may present with visual hallucinations? Have you deliberated about how best to work up and treat patients with visual hallucinations? [...]

What Causes Visual Hallucinations?

Numerous hypotheses have been suggested to explain the genesis of visual hallucinations. These have been summarized and categorized by Asaad and Shapiro: psychophysiologic (i.e., as a disturbance of brain structure), psychobiochemical (as a disturbance of neurotransmitters), and psychodynamic (as an emergence of the unconscious into consciousness). Visual hallucinations can be the result of all 3 processes, given the interplay among disturbances of brain anatomy, brain chemistry, prior experiences, and psychodynamic meaning.

To date, no single neural mechanism has explained all types of visual hallucinations; however, the similarity of visual hallucinations that are associated with seemingly diverse conditions suggests a final common pathway. Manford and Andermann summarized pathophysiologic mechanisms thought to account for complex visual hallucinations.

The first mechanism involves irritation (e.g., seizure activity) of cortical centers responsible for visual processing. Irritation of the primary visual cortex (Brodmann's area 17) causes simple elementary visual hallucinations, while irritation of the visual association cortices (Brodmann's areas 18 and 19) causes more complex visual hallucinations. These data are supported by both electroencephalographic (EEG) recordings and direct stimulation experiments.

Lesions that cause deafferentation of the visual system may lead to cortical release phenomenon, including visual hallucinations. Normal inputs are thought to be under the control of inhibitory processes that are effectively removed by deafferentation. It has been further suggested that deafferented neurons undergo specific biochemical and molecular changes that lead to an overall increase in excitability (similar to the denervation hypersensitivity seen in phantom limb syndrome experienced by amputees).

A multitude of lesions can cause this loss of input and inhibit other cognitive functions. Of note, visual hallucinations may be induced by prolonged visual deprivation. One study reported visual hallucinations in 10 of 13 healthy subjects blindfolded for a period of 5 days; this finding lends strong support to the idea that the simple loss of normal visual input is sufficient to cause visual hallucinations.

Finally, due to its role in the maintenance of arousal, the reticular activating system has been implicated in the genesis of visual hallucinations. Lesions of the brainstem have led to visual hallucinations (as in peduncular hallucinosis). Further, visual hallucinations are common in those with certain sleep disorders, and occur more frequently in those who are drowsy. The observation that visual hallucinations occur more frequently in those who are drowsy (even in the absence of frank sleep pathology) suggests that the reticular activating system plays a role in visual hallucinations, although the precise mechanism has not yet been established. [...]

Visual hallucinations in those with schizophrenia tend to involve vivid scenes with family members, religious figures, and animals. Reactions to these visions can vary and include fear, pleasure, or indifference. The hallucinations are usually described as colorful and involving normal-sized people and objects; however, visual hallucinations of giants have also been reported.

Bold emphasis mine; internal citations omitted. Note that none of those hypotheses listed have any relation to being "hit on the head", though I don't doubt that internal bleeding resulting from a traumatic impact can produce some of those results.

The article goes on to talk about schizophrenia-type hallucinations, under these hypotheses. Worth a read. Of course, this is all how we see it in the modern age; to a person in the ancient near east, the only possible explanation for seeing things which you don't expect to see is, "I had a vision from GOD!"

Given that Saul of Tarsus was reputed to be obsessed with destroying the Christian cult, up until the moment of his hallucination, it's hardly surprising that the images his brain chose to dredge up for said hallucination came from Christianity, and would have been interpreted by him as a Sign From God™ that he needed to become one of them, despite people like him who persecuted them. This is especially true if he was losing sleep out of guilt for what he was doing to people, and his hallucination was triggered by that sort of exhaustion-- what better way to atone for what you'd done than to join them and be persecuted, yourself?

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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03-11-2015, 12:14 PM
RE:
The view of earth from antiquity can be summed up in one word: Ridiculousness. It's easy to say that now, but they were basing their belief from what seemed to be the best ideals at the time. They did not have the process of science. They simply reacted by what they observed and the stories that were created. By knowing how near-eastern (and other religions) developed their creation stories and putting together the missing pieces of that puzzle we come up with this picture...absurd thinking? You decide.

[Image: jtot_genesis_cosmology.jpg]

**Crickets** -- God
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