Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
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03-11-2015, 12:36 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(02-11-2015 05:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  I trust those who speak the word first.
So if I tell you that there is no god, will you trust me? Will you have faith in me?

How do you decide which people to trust and which to not trust?

I don't trust anyone, I always apply critical skeptical thought.

(02-11-2015 05:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  She said the truth. Didn't she? Why should you punish her?
I understand that most Christians read the bible differently from what is written, but in the bible didn't the god punish Eve for disobeying the god and taking fruit?

"To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

Wasn't it the god that lied.
"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

and the snake told the truth
"The snake said to the woman, 'Surely you will not die! For God knows that on the day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like gods, knowing good and evil"

and yet it was the snake that was punished and not the god
"Yahweh God said to the snake, 'Because you have done this, you are cursed! On your belly you shall go, and eat dirt all the days of your life. I will put hostility between you and the woman. Her offspring will strike at your head, and you will strike at her offspring's heels"

Punishment was dished out over disobedience, not over truth versus lies.

(02-11-2015 05:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  One thing is to claim to be a prophet another thing is to do what prophets of God do. Jesus said: if you don't believe Me believe my works". He also said that by "their fruits(works) we will know the difference between true prophets and false prophets.
What remarkable works have you seen done?
Or have you merely read about them. Did the prophets write about their own remarkable works? I could write about my own remarkable works. I can do magical things in my stories.

(02-11-2015 05:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  Nobody is punished for not believing. But those who do not believe and do evil and do not repent will be punished.
But of course you don't know this. No-one knows this, you have only read and interpreted stories.

(02-11-2015 05:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  But not for eternity of course. God is not just Justice, He is both Justice and Mercy.
Who knows god's mind? Who knows what god is capable of? The only way to find out is to meet this god and observe and judge its works.
Noone has ever met this god, noone has ever observed its works. The Christians believe their god to be unobservable.

(02-11-2015 05:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 07:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  So how do you know that spiritual matter exists if you do not know its nature, if you have never detected it?
I just trust word of God.
God has never spoken to you. You have read stories written by men. I can write stories too, I have an imagination. I can write that god said this and that, I can write that god will reward you or punish you for doing this and that. All you have to do is to believe what I write. It is a virtue for you to believe, blessed are those who believe.

(02-11-2015 05:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 07:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You assume your god exists and therefore you assume your spiritual matter exists. If spiritual matter exists then might solve your problem of "What is god made of".
I don't have to know what God is made of. It is not required for salvation.
There is a reason why I don't have perfect knowledge(I don't know everything) about God.
That's right, but your sensibilities tell you that your god must be made of something so you invented spiritual matter to solve this issue that you can see.

(02-11-2015 05:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  there is a reason why I have to live by faith. Do you know this reason?
There are many reasons why people go down this path. For many it is because their parents have indoctorined them into it. For others it is because they have been approached by some religious people peddling this garbage.
Some people come into it because they have assumed an event happened because they prayed for it, rather than realise that shit happens.
Perhaps its through your own incredulity, perhaps you are as amazed as I am with regards to there being something rather than nothing, to there being organisation in the universe there being complex life organisms. It's amazing stuff and a person could easily just assume a magical creature intentionally made it all happen.
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03-11-2015, 12:49 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 12:11 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 10:57 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Lets say that this person had no history of psychological disorders and no evidence of anything physical (drugs, brain injury, unintentional inhalation of chemicals, ect) Would there then be a mutual understanding the person's claim would appear to be delusional but due to the lack of any evidence to prove or disprove such an experience it would be labeled as "I cannot confirm or deny the legitimacy of the claim"?

I am only bringing this up after putting some thought into the testimony of the apostle Paul who claimed to have had a vision from Jesus. Assuming that the account as described in the bible is accurate (and I completely understand that it may not but just for the discussion let's assume the account was accurate), what could be some possible explanations for such a claim? How can someone who persecuted and killed Christians have all of a sudden make a complete 180 and become so convinced by his claim that he then dedicated his life to the Christian cause and eventually die from it?

Now I am not a doctor or a psychological expert by any means but could an experience like that have occurred as a result of blunt force head trauma from falling off a horse?

Google is your friend: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2660156/

The National Institutes of Health Wrote:Have you ever encountered a patient who reported isolated visual hallucinations but did not have any other symptoms of delirium or psychosis? Have you wondered which medical and neurologic illnesses may present with visual hallucinations? Have you deliberated about how best to work up and treat patients with visual hallucinations? [...]

What Causes Visual Hallucinations?

Numerous hypotheses have been suggested to explain the genesis of visual hallucinations. These have been summarized and categorized by Asaad and Shapiro: psychophysiologic (i.e., as a disturbance of brain structure), psychobiochemical (as a disturbance of neurotransmitters), and psychodynamic (as an emergence of the unconscious into consciousness). Visual hallucinations can be the result of all 3 processes, given the interplay among disturbances of brain anatomy, brain chemistry, prior experiences, and psychodynamic meaning.

To date, no single neural mechanism has explained all types of visual hallucinations; however, the similarity of visual hallucinations that are associated with seemingly diverse conditions suggests a final common pathway. Manford and Andermann summarized pathophysiologic mechanisms thought to account for complex visual hallucinations.

The first mechanism involves irritation (e.g., seizure activity) of cortical centers responsible for visual processing. Irritation of the primary visual cortex (Brodmann's area 17) causes simple elementary visual hallucinations, while irritation of the visual association cortices (Brodmann's areas 18 and 19) causes more complex visual hallucinations. These data are supported by both electroencephalographic (EEG) recordings and direct stimulation experiments.

Lesions that cause deafferentation of the visual system may lead to cortical release phenomenon, including visual hallucinations. Normal inputs are thought to be under the control of inhibitory processes that are effectively removed by deafferentation. It has been further suggested that deafferented neurons undergo specific biochemical and molecular changes that lead to an overall increase in excitability (similar to the denervation hypersensitivity seen in phantom limb syndrome experienced by amputees).

A multitude of lesions can cause this loss of input and inhibit other cognitive functions. Of note, visual hallucinations may be induced by prolonged visual deprivation. One study reported visual hallucinations in 10 of 13 healthy subjects blindfolded for a period of 5 days; this finding lends strong support to the idea that the simple loss of normal visual input is sufficient to cause visual hallucinations.

Finally, due to its role in the maintenance of arousal, the reticular activating system has been implicated in the genesis of visual hallucinations. Lesions of the brainstem have led to visual hallucinations (as in peduncular hallucinosis). Further, visual hallucinations are common in those with certain sleep disorders, and occur more frequently in those who are drowsy. The observation that visual hallucinations occur more frequently in those who are drowsy (even in the absence of frank sleep pathology) suggests that the reticular activating system plays a role in visual hallucinations, although the precise mechanism has not yet been established. [...]

Visual hallucinations in those with schizophrenia tend to involve vivid scenes with family members, religious figures, and animals. Reactions to these visions can vary and include fear, pleasure, or indifference. The hallucinations are usually described as colorful and involving normal-sized people and objects; however, visual hallucinations of giants have also been reported.

Bold emphasis mine; internal citations omitted. Note that none of those hypotheses listed have any relation to being "hit on the head", though I don't doubt that internal bleeding resulting from a traumatic impact can produce some of those results.

The article goes on to talk about schizophrenia-type hallucinations, under these hypotheses. Worth a read. Of course, this is all how we see it in the modern age; to a person in the ancient near east, the only possible explanation for seeing things which you don't expect to see is, "I had a vision from GOD!"

Given that Saul of Tarsus was reputed to be obsessed with destroying the Christian cult, up until the moment of his hallucination, it's hardly surprising that the images his brain chose to dredge up for said hallucination came from Christianity, and would have been interpreted by him as a Sign From God™ that he needed to become one of them, despite people like him who persecuted them. This is especially true if he was losing sleep out of guilt for what he was doing to people, and his hallucination was triggered by that sort of exhaustion-- what better way to atone for what you'd done than to join them and be persecuted, yourself?
Well tbi could be the likely cause to explain Paul's temporary blindness.
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03-11-2015, 01:10 PM
Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(02-11-2015 07:37 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  God is verified to me personally on many different levels pretty much daily even though I still falter and stumble down the path that I have asked to be lead down.

Could you please explain exactly what you mean by God's existence is "verified" to you at many levels? Do you mean in a purely (so-called) spiritual sense? Can you give us an example of any incident that he advised you about, and which advice caused you to respond in a manner opposite to your first instincts? And in hindsight, was his guidance of help subsequently?

And if God is advising you daily about which path to take in your life, why is it that you still falter (unsure of God's advice maybe?) or stumble (God's advice was unhelpful?). As an atheist, I make many mistakes—or at the least less favourable decisions—in my daily life. Would you say that, with God's help, you make less mistakes than I do? Or can you not quantify this sort of thing?

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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03-11-2015, 01:12 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 10:10 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  This is just a general question to anyone who wants to answer. Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about someone who claims to have had a vision of some kind where God actually spoke to them and was so convinced in his experience that despite knowing there could be a reasonable explanation in the realms of Psychology and Physiology he believed it to be true.

I know this is a run on sentence... but eh.

Wasn't Abraham a cattle herder? What grows from cow poop? If you saw a man today running around with a knife saying that voices told him to lop off dick skins, what would you think

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

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03-11-2015, 01:21 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 01:12 PM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 10:10 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  This is just a general question to anyone who wants to answer. Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about someone who claims to have had a vision of some kind where God actually spoke to them and was so convinced in his experience that despite knowing there could be a reasonable explanation in the realms of Psychology and Physiology he believed it to be true.

I know this is a run on sentence... but eh.

Wasn't Abraham a cattle herder? What grows from cow poop? If you saw a man today running around with a knife saying that voices told him to lop off dick skins, what would you think
Bwahahaha
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03-11-2015, 01:22 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 12:06 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 03:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  Including no religion at all. Drinking Beverage

All the value, none of the cost. Yes
It's free jackass. And beneficial to all.

Religion is not free, it has costs: monetary, mental, emotional, and social.

What's a 'free jackass'? Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-11-2015, 01:24 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 12:10 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  The Sumarians actually knew not only that the earth was somewhat oblong, but that it wobbled on its axis.

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03-11-2015, 02:47 PM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2015 02:53 PM by Alla.)
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
(03-11-2015 12:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 05:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  I trust those who speak the word first.
So if I tell you that there is no god, will you trust me? Will you have faith in me?
No. This is the reason:
I don't trust people because they say something. I trust people because they do something.
P.S. Too sad you don't want your daughter to trust you. Every loving and caring and wise parent wants to protect his/her little children from the danger and teaches his/her little children about things that are dangerous. It is important that little children trust their parents and this way they may avoid many bad consequences.
Parents who don't care don't teach their children about dangerous and destructive things.
(03-11-2015 12:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  How do you decide which people to trust and which to not trust?
Actions(fruits) speak thousand words.
1)I trust people whom I know very well and who showed that they love me and care about me through their actions.
2)Usually I trust people who have enough knowledge and experience(professionals)
3)Sometimes I trust people because my intuition tells me to do this.
4) I trust apostles and prophets because Spirit confirms that their words are true and I know their fruits.
(03-11-2015 12:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I don't trust anyone, I always apply critical skeptical thought.
That's OK. I am not trying to convince you to do this.
(03-11-2015 12:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 05:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  She said the truth. Didn't she? Why should you punish her?
I understand that most Christians read the bible differently from what is written, but in the bible didn't the god punish Eve for disobeying the god and taking fruit?
No, He didn't.
(03-11-2015 12:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  "To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."
Eve chose to become like Gods who know good and evil (pain, sickness, suffering, death). How could Eve become like Gods who know evil if she never experienced evil(suffering)? How could she become allknowing like Gods if she didn't know what evil was?
(03-11-2015 12:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Wasn't it the god that lied.
"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Lied about what? I am not sure I understand what lie you are talking about.
(03-11-2015 12:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  and the snake told the truth
"The snake said to the woman, 'Surely you will not die! For God knows that on the day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like gods, knowing good and evil"
The snake said a lie mingled with the truth. He lied that she won't die but he said the truth that she will be like Gods, knowing good and evil and that her eyes will be opened.
Eve died the same day she partook of the fruit. More specifically she died the same moment she broke the law.
(03-11-2015 12:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  and yet it was the snake that was punished and not the god
God said the truth: Adam and Eve died the same day. Snake lied that they won't die. Lucifer appeared as serpent. Do you know why? Probably not. Serpent is symbol of God of Israel. And only God of Israel can give this promise: you will not die. Lucifer deceived Eve by appearing as serpent(symbol of God Messiah) and by giving her false promise.
(03-11-2015 12:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 05:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  One thing is to claim to be a prophet another thing is to do what prophets of God do. Jesus said: if you don't believe Me believe my works". He also said that by "their fruits(works) we will know the difference between true prophets and false prophets.
What remarkable works have you seen done?
Or have you merely read about them. Did the prophets write about their own remarkable works? I could write about my own remarkable works. I can do magical things in my stories.
If you were LDS you would know it. They do remarkable works. Joseph Smith did remarkable works. If you were LDS you would know.
(03-11-2015 12:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 05:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  Nobody is punished for not believing. But those who do not believe and do evil and do not repent will be punished.
But of course you don't know this. No-one knows this, you have only read and interpreted stories.
The Holy Ghost confirmed this to me. I trust the Holy Ghost.
It is true that I don't have perfect knowledge of this. But I already said that the point is NOT to have perfect knowledge but to have faith. Only if we have faith we can become like Gods.
(03-11-2015 12:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 05:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  But not for eternity of course. God is not just Justice, He is both Justice and Mercy.
Who knows god's mind? Who knows what god is capable of? The only way to find out is to meet this god and observe and judge its works.
Noone has ever met this god, noone has ever observed its works. The Christians believe their god to be unobservable.
When I live by faith I start to have results. If these results are good and true I am on the right path and it means I continue to learn and to grow.
(03-11-2015 12:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 05:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  I just trust word of God.
God has never spoken to you.
He speaks to me all the time. By the power of the Holy Ghost. This is why I am not atheist any more.

(03-11-2015 12:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You have read stories written by men. I can write stories too, I have an imagination. I can write that god said this and that, I can write that god will reward you or punish you for doing this and that. All you have to do is to believe what I write. It is a virtue for you to believe, blessed are those who believe.
I was an theist and I didn't believe stories. But when Spirit confirmed to me that there is God I was convinced. I believe now. So, God gave me gift of faith. Now it is up to me what to do with this gift - to magnify and learn and grow until I have perfect knowledge. Or to throw away this gift.
(03-11-2015 12:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 05:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  I don't have to know what God is made of. It is not required for salvation.
There is a reason why I don't have perfect knowledge(I don't know everything) about God.
That's right, but your sensibilities tell you that your god must be made of something so you invented spiritual matter to solve this issue that you can see.
God gave revelations through His prophets that He is made of something. Spirit confirmed it to me. I believe Spirit.
(03-11-2015 12:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 05:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  there is a reason why I have to live by faith. Do you know this reason?
There are many reasons why people go down this path. For many it is because their parents have indoctorined them into it. For others it is because they have been approached by some religious people peddling this garbage.
Some people come into it because they have assumed an event happened because they prayed for it, rather than realise that shit happens.
Perhaps its through your own incredulity, perhaps you are as amazed as I am with regards to there being something rather than nothing, to there being organisation in the universe there being complex life organisms. It's amazing stuff and a person could easily just assume a magical creature intentionally made it all happen.
If we had perfect knowledge we would be Gods. But we are not. We are not ready yet to be Gods. If you had perfect knowledge of God now and if you broke only one law you would go to hell forever. But because you don't have perfect knowledge and you break God's laws every day, God can forgive you.
Perfect knowledge = great accountability. As soon as you break one law you can't live any more. You can't learn. when you live by faith you can correct your mistakes and learn and grow. You can become like God.
If you have perfect knowledge you have no room for learning and growing.
Perfect knowledge is something that has to be EARNED.

You are an atheist. God knows this. He also knows why you are an atheist.
He knows your "heart". You also have conscience. Your conscience is the law that is written in your "heart". If you do evil and you know in your "heart" that it is evil you have to repent. It is good for you to do what is right when you know that it is right. It is good for you to correct mistakes if it is possible.

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03-11-2015, 03:08 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
Back to the video.

QUOTE:
it's not just light plants need(which once again, could not have logically existed before stars), plants on earth requires sunlight form Sun, our Sun)

ALLA:
So, what is heaven? and how big is heaven? Is it 1 galaxy? 5 galaxies? 100 galaxies? or is it entire unlimited space?
The Bible is silent.
But God is not.
When Earth was organized She was near Kolob. Kolob is great star. Kolob was giving light. While Earth was near Kolob God was preparing Solar System far away from Kolob.
As soon as Adam and Eve fell Earth was moved to Solar System. Everything changed. Earth received another glory, lower glory.

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03-11-2015, 03:17 PM
RE: Bible's view of the cosmos: flat earth, moving sun. People actually buy into this?
Oh my, my. More quotes. More reading comprehension problems.

QUOTE:
Genesis has a very primitive view of the universe. God apparently placed the sun and the moon within the heavens directly above the earth.

ALLA:
Really?! Really?! Is this what we read in Genesis?

What is heaven? how big is heaven.

We know from Genesis that God divided waters and heaven was in the midst. Water on earth started to evaporate and clouds(water) appeared above the surface of the Earth(below). This way heaven was in the midst. But how big is heaven above the clouds? how far does it stretch? continues?

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